Do current Wilson speakers have "Pistonic" drivers?

[Mdp632]

Perhaps a newbie question. But, I see this term used a lot in high end cone speakers. For example, Vandersteen and Magico.

However, are Wilson's drivers pistonic? I didn't think so because they are paper cones but, wanted to ask the gurus here.

Thanks

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Almost all cone drivers can be described as"pistonic" since they are intended to move as an unbroken solid surface. This is achieved to varying degrees by products which advertise with the term or not. Thus, the term is merely descriptive but not definitive.

There are exceptions in which the surface of the driver is intended to break up with parts moving differently but in a defined pattern but they are rare.

 

[ddk]

Perhaps a newbie question. But, I see this term used a lot in high end cone speakers. For example, Vandersteen and Magico.

However, are Wilson's drivers pistonic? I didn't think so because they are paper cones but, wanted to ask the gurus here.

Thanks

In my circles I t’s generally a negative term to describe a slow woofer that you can hear moving and not blending in properly nothing to do with cone materials, and yes Wilson’s can and do sound pistonic at times.

david

 

[Kal Rubinson]

In my circles I t’s generally a negative term to describe a slow woofer that you can hear moving and not blending in properly nothing to do with cone materials, ............................................................

Wow. Can you provide a link (scientific or otherwise) to that usage for the term? I have never heard it used that way in audio or in science.

 

[ddk]

Wow. Can you provide a link (scientific or otherwise) to that usage for the term? I have never heard it used that way in audio or in science.

Like you said, it's a descriptive term and it describes mostly slow and sometimes one note bass. You can even hear it move because it's so slow and of course you're always welcome to hang with us Kal and I promise you'll hear it used more often than you expect.

david

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Like you said, it's a descriptive term and it describes mostly slow and sometimes one note bass. You can even hear it move because it's so slow and of course you're always welcome to hang with us Kal and I promise you'll hear it used more often than you expect.

Please, show me where anyone else, other than you, has used this term in the past. I have been involved with audio for many decades and I find this usage novel.
Common and accepted usage: https://vandersteen.com/news/the-truth-about-pistonic-driver-cones

 

[ddk]

Google it if you're so interested Kal, I don't police the net for people's usage of descriptive audio terms.

david

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Google it if you're so interested Kal, I don't police the net for people's usage of descriptive audio terms.

I have. Your usage does not seem to be shared with anyone else and seems only to impede communication.

 

[ddk]

I have. Your usage does not seem to be shared with anyone else and seems only to impede communication.

Then I highly recommend you get around and expand your horizon and your definitions.
david

 

[microstrip]

Fast and slow bass are current audiophile terms. Although it is not related to the velocity of the cones and sometimes people make misleading associations, most people seem to agree on systems having slow or fast bass.

Jim Smith has a good page on it https://www.psaudio.com/article/trick-or-treat/

 

[ddk]

Fast and slow bass are current audiophile terms. Although it is not related to the velocity of the cones and sometimes people make misleading associations, most people seem to agree on systems having slow or fast bass.

Jim Smith has a good page on it https://www.psaudio.com/article/trick-or-treat/

To clarify, in my case slow means slow when there’s a mechanical disjointed quality to the bass, you can hear it, hence pistonic.

david

 

[Kal Rubinson]

To clarify, in my case slow means slow when there’s a mechanical disjointed quality to the bass, you can hear it, hence pistonic.

That is your interpretation of something not stated in the reference.

Then I highly recommend you get around and expand your horizon and your definitions.

I asked you three times to offer any support of your position and, instead, you choose to question mine. Have you no shame? I see no reason to acknowledge you any more.

 

[DaveC]

Please, show me where anyone else, other than you, has used this term in the past. I have been involved with audio for many decades and I find this usage novel.
Common and accepted usage: https://vandersteen.com/news/the-truth-about-pistonic-driver-cones

I agree. The word has a very specific meaning, an idealized speaker driver membrane that does not break up and the center and edges move exactly at the same time so the membrane creates no distortion because of uneven motion.

"Slow" bass is really the exact opposite, so much distortion that it sounds "one-note" and, well, slow and out of time with the music.

 

[ddk]

That is your interpretation of something not stated in the reference.

I asked you three times to offer any support of your position and, instead, you choose to question mine. Have you no shame? I see no reason to acknowledge you any more.

And I replied every time what pistonic means to us and that it has nothing to do with your link. I never questioned your definition only your narrow mindedness! Are we all supposed to subscribe to your singular definition of pistonic?

Edit- In your link pistonic is referencing the back & forth motion of the cone which is the same for me the difference is the context and valuation. In the author’s views paper cones are categorically inferior which is the total opposite of my references so naturally my useage of pistonic is contrary to his.

david

 

[sujay]

Perhaps a newbie question. But, I see this term used a lot in high end cone speakers. For example, Vandersteen and Magico.

However, are Wilson's drivers pistonic? I didn't think so because they are paper cones but, wanted to ask the gurus here.

Thanks

Hi, neither am I a guru nor purport to be one - that undisputed distinction belongs to only a select few in this forum. All I do know is that cone drivers are meant to demonstrate pistonic behavior within their operating range and that is meant to be a good thing, not bad. That is how the manufacturer intends them to behave and I am told it leads to lower distortion. As far as my limited knowledge goes, different cone materials have different operating ranges and break-up modes and all are intended to display pistonic behavior within their operating ranges. And so should the Wilson drivers. Hope this makes sense......

 

[Folsom]

“Slow” sounding bass doesn’t usually (if ever) have anything to do with actual speed. It gets one noted because of an and/or situation between stored energy & feedback - feedback that can sometimes be a partial result from room reinforcement or enclosure style.

On the other hand “fast” bass can come from elongated signal from transformer output tube amps, tubes themselves, and classD’s output filters. At least those are common.

Neither are “right” exactly. But people clearly enjoy different types. I do like well defined bass, and am not really a fan of ported speakers. But I have heard some that still sound real good.

Pistonic, it means nothing more than the driver moves like a piston. Nothing more. You could interchangeably use “dynamic” (probably the dumbest term for a driver). It just so happens that some like to use it in marketing to differentiate themselves with their stiffer cones. It’s not like anyone purpsoely tries to make flexy cones... but there can be trade offs to stiffness shape being dominate.

 

[Folsom]

Peter is right that room setup can also change a lot of perception.

 

[morricab]

And I replied every time what pistonic means to us and that it has nothing to do with your link. I never questioned your definition only your narrow mindedness! Are we all supposed to subscribe to your singular definition of pistonic?

Edit- In your link pistonic is referencing the back & forth motion of the cone which is the same for me the difference is the context and valuation. In the author’s views paper cones are categorically inferior which is the total opposite of my references so naturally my useage of pistonic is contrary to his.

david

Sorry David, it is well known in the wider Audio world that pistonic refers to a driver that has no inadvertent flexing...at least within its pass band. It has absolutely nothing to do with fast or slow sound.

If this is the pet name you give for slow bass then so be it but don’t try to foist it on the people of this forum. I doubt anyone else here has slow bass in mind when someone calls a driver pistonic.

I normally think you offer a lot of sound advice and experience and I agree with your overall audio philosophy but wrangling over this term with a usage way out in left field is one of the silliest things I have seen from you on WBF.

 

[morricab]

Fast and slow bass are current audiophile terms. Although it is not related to the velocity of the cones and sometimes people make misleading associations, most people seem to agree on systems having slow or fast bass.
Jim Smith has a good page on it https://www.psaudio.com/article/trick-or-treat/

Fast or slow bass has more to do with cabinet tuning (Qt) , resonances, driver distortions etc. and not so much with a driver itself (unless the driver has a very high Qts itself). Crossover phase issues can exacerbate this perception.

Design a critically damped cabinet and most drivers won’t sound slow.

It also might not have to do with velocity per se but acceleration could also be a factor. Many high sensitivity drivers have very high field strength and low mass, which gives them a higher acceleration factor. Many of these are able to make gut punching bass with a very short throw. It seems to me then you are getting the same amount of air compression in less time because the acceleration is higher and the distance traveled (ie. time) is less. Not sure if this is a cause or incidentals it could be that such drivers simply allow for a better tuning of the cabinet to get what you want.

 

[microstrip]

Sorry David, it is well known in the wider Audio world that pistonic refers to a driver that has no inadvertent flexing...at least within its pass band. It has absolutely nothing to do with fast or slow sound. (...)

We can not escape from the reality that people associate piston with the macroscopic world - and here David has a point. Our general view of "flexing" is related with what we view and feel with our senses, so we associate it with stiff cones. However stiffness depends on frequencies being considered and effectively we are poor judges of it. In the absence of proper measures and data we associate stiffness with its consequence - that most of the time is just "slow bass" ...

Surely my discourse would be different in the WBF "Measurements " section"!