Dedicated circuit for each outlet pair?

BlueFox

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Nov 8, 2013
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Well you probably wouldn’t get much pleasure from a sub panel that is unpowered so...

Why wouldn’t it have any power?
 
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micro13

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All sub-panels are, as the name implies, a "sub" off a "main". So the configuration is a breaker in the main panel that feeds the sub-panel. Being more specific, the 40 or 50 amp breaker goes in your main panel. Then HEAVY cable from the main panel to the sub-panel (separate discussion on size of cable). This 40/50 amp feed acts as the main feed for the sub-panel. Each breaker in the sub-panel draws from this single line to the main panel, which in our case is a single feed and thus all on the desired same phase.

@DaveC951 - I think I understand the importance of the whole system only on one phase because of the phase shift between phases, but is this also effective with extreme powerful mono amps like for example EMM Labs MTRX or MTRX2? Wouldn't it be better to split the amps on two phases because of the heavy load?

And regarding size of size of heavy cable from main to sub-panel or also the size for dedicated lines especially for powerful mono amps is there already a separate discussion on the forum?
 

brad225

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Nov 22, 2012
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Upside down is pretty straight forward to fix if you want. Tunrn breaker off, remive cover plate, remove the two screws the hold the outlet in, carefully tun the outlet upside down. Repeat in reverse.

I ran 10 AWG to all of the outlets in my room. I attempted to plug in my power amps, speakers and a sub woofer at the front of the room. To my dismay, my Shunyata PC's were to stiff to twist them the 180 degrees from there natural orientation without having a big loop of cable up in the air.
I was forced to flip the receptacles 180 degrees to eliminate it. With 10AWG it is not as simple as just flipping it over. I had to remove all of the wires from the receptacle and put them back in once I straightened and re-configured them in the wall box.
My outlets are in the baseboard and at 67 laying on the floor to do this was not much fun. You don't realize how stiff #10 is until you try to put it into a small space.
I was happy with the cables lying flat on the floor though.
 

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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Glad you got it done. Sorry it wasn't as easy as I made it sound.

Which is stiffer, 10 Ga wire or your back after doing the work? I wish you a fast recovery.
 
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Blackmorec

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Feb 1, 2019
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Is it possible to have a sub-panel that is also connected to the main AC power coming in?

I think the question is:
Is it possible to have a sub panel that has its main supply T’d off from the incoming mains before the main breaker cabinet?

I only know UK systems, but here we use Henley blocks in the meter panel with one feed from the meter coming in and 2 feeds going out....one to the main panel and the other to the sub panel. In this way the sub-panel bypasses the main panel entirely. No idea if this is compliant with US code
 

brad225

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Nov 22, 2012
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Glad you got it done. Sorry it wasn't as easy as I made it sound.

Which is stiffer, 10 Ga wire or your back after doing the work? I wish you a fast recovery.


I think it would be easier for younger hands and back.

Ibuprofen and a couple of glasses of wine took care of my stiffness.

The other concern I had was the force of twisting the receptacles loosen the wires and I would need to re-check them anyway.
 

tony22

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Nov 4, 2019
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I’m going to go OT in my own thread. I’ll leave it to @Ron Resnick or one of the other mods to decide if it should be split into its own thread.

I mentioned earlier here that I’ve been toying with the idea of expanding the room. So I used the Room Modes calculator on Bob Golds’ site to see if I can get a sense of what I’d be faced with. I know there are other room mode sites where you can go even further - putting in window sizes, wall construction details, stuff like that. But I wanted to get a quick, if less than perfectly accurate look at things.

I’m attaching 6 images. The first three are for the room in its current size. The second three are for the expanded option, as best as I can estimate what the new length would be. What has me a little confused is the Bonello curve for the smaller, current size room to me looks slightly better. Opinions welcome.

EDAC1E32-2F5C-44DE-9BEB-4EA82D084E90.png 1C0A6A9A-C3C3-492B-88C8-808DC912D21C.png 28D56618-DA5C-4C80-8BFD-CE7771FC2D34.png 53F85DBB-EC58-46A2-A246-7E1EF6F756AA.png C3F2B103-BAA0-4F5C-96A2-EF93F2F8EB64.png ADCBCE42-B6CC-49A0-9708-837CCBF57D51.png
 
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Ron Resnick

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Jan 25, 2015
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I vote for the 21' x 13' option. That rectangle is theoretically better than almost square, I believe.

If you'd like to start another thread for this, feel free.
 

Kingrex

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Feb 4, 2019
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If one requires greater than 15A (or 20A) per outlet, then individual circuits to adjacent outlets is the solution. But if there is no such current demand by the audio equipment then there's really no point in separate circuits other than perhaps future scalability. These "separate circuits" are shorted in the sub panel or main breaker box anyhow.

I don't believe this is true. I use to adhere to 1 circuit. Then I started adding circuits and its much better. But this is a topic that starts fights.
 

Kingrex

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Is it possible to have a sub-panel that is also connected to the main AC power coming in?
Pretty much anything can be done legally and correct. It comes down to $ and benefit.
 

Cellcbern

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Thanks. Yes, I plan to run 20A lines and outlets into the room. But a question. Will a licensed electrician (I’m in the U.S.) use “audiophile” parts? For example, I would like to use either JPS Labs or Audience in wall AC cable, but neither of these are what a licensed electrician would normally use. I’m not sure if either one of these is UL listed.
Don't know why that should be a problem. When my dedicated listening room was built I used a licensed electrician and he installed the JPS Labs wire as I requested.
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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Alrainbow

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Thanks. Yes, I plan to run 20A lines and outlets into the room. But a question. Will a licensed electrician (I’m in the U.S.) use “audiophile” parts? For example, I would like to use either JPS Labs or Audience in wall AC cable, but neither of these are what a licensed electrician would normally use. I’m not sure if either one of these is UL listed.
Use ten gauge
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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By the way, I agree that all wire runs to duplex outlets should be the same length to avoid ground loops.

Unfortunately, I could not figure out how to accomplish this in my particular situation, as the audio sub-panel was outside the listening room just past the front left corner of the listening room, and the front-end equipment is diagonal from that corner and is past the rear right corner of the listening room into an adjacent equipment room all the way on the other side. :rolleyes:

From the sub-panel the length to the near duplex outlet is about 7 feet, and the length to the far duplex outlet is about 70 feet. (I have 3 to 2 prong AC adapters ready in case I need to lift any grounds.)
It’s just fodder from experts who post as industry experts and then tell people with eng degrees and lisc Electricians have no place to comment on. Over size grounds. Use 10/3 mc cable and only use white and black wire . Then use red and internal ground wire as one ground. Use a pigtail at outlets coz you cannot attach 2 10 gauge wires to outlet
lastly use isolated ground hospital grade outlets. This stops ground loops Ron. Why it achieves a one ground path back to panel. Now there still can be possible ground issues but you have greatly lowered the potential over all.
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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If one requires greater than 15A (or 20A) per outlet, then individual circuits to adjacent outlets is the solution. But if there is no such current demand by the audio equipment then there's really no point in separate circuits other than perhaps future scalability. These "separate circuits" are shorted in the sub panel or main breaker box anyhow.
There is always a need for separate circuits and for the record any dedicated circuit is min 12 gauge hence 20 amps
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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Well you probably wouldn’t get much pleasure from a sub panel that is unpowered so...
Yes and it’s best at min
and if you use a balanced iso transformer of proper size it’s best. Now industry kill joy Dave will be along shortly to tell us all it’s no good lol
 

Cellcbern

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It’s just fodder run you type experts post about and then tell people with eng degrees and lisc Electricians have no place to comment on. Over size grounds. Use 10/3 mc cable and only use white and black wire . Then use red and internal ground wire as one ground. Use a pigtail at outlets coz you cannot attach 2 10 gauge wires to outlet
lastly use isolated ground hospital grade outlets. This stops ground loops Ron. Why it achieves a one ground path back to panel. Now there still can be possible ground issues but you have greatly lowered the potential over all.
My electrician ran a 30A line from the main panel to a separate breaker box and JPS Labs "In Wall Wiring" (2 x 10 awg plus 12awg ground) from there to a 20A Oyaide R-1 wall outlet which easily accepted the wire. The dedicated line and outlet are grounded back to the main panel. He also installed an Environmental Potentials EP-2050 Waveform Corrector and an EP-2750 Ground filter on the main panel for me. Everything was completed without a hitch and five years in I have never experienced a ground loop or any type of hum.
 
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MTB Vince

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Lol do you think it matters ?
Identical length runs using identical wire for your multiple dedicated lines avoids ground loop noise.
 

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