Center Stage 2

joelavrencik

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Nov 15, 2016
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Sorry. Goebel Divin Noblesse. Many thanks.
howiebrou

Wow, what a gorgeous loudspeaker. Congratulations!

It looks to me like our LS1.5s might be perfect for your loudspeakers. We might be able to use connectors to screw directly into the bottom of the cabinet. Do you have any idea of the the diameter of the standard foot and perhaps the thread pattern. Let's see if we can make this approach work, if you are willing.

Thank you for asking!

A favor to ask....... Can we please move further discussions to my LS thread. I think it would helpful to readers if we kept loudspeaker feet and component feet on their respective threads.

Thanks again

Joe
 

joelavrencik

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Does electronics with a marble case render CS2 footer less effective? I have a trinity power conditioner which outer case made of marble. Today i put in my cs2 0.8 and it seems to have no effect.
Not that I know of as of this post. I think we need to give it some time. Please keep me posted in a about ten days. Let's see what happens.
 

joelavrencik

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Does electronics with a marble case render CS2 footer less effective? I have a trinity power conditioner which outer case made of marble. Today i put in my cs2 0.8 and it seems to have no effect.
I could have given you a more detailed answer. Here's what we know CS2 will NOT work under as of this writing:

Components with an acrylic bottom such as ASR and Audio Research Ref6. The soundstage tips up.
Most Burmester products as they apply heavy damping to the bottom of their components. The soundstage is dull.
Goldmund products with a double bottom lined with teflon. The soundstage is dull.

This is all we know so far.........

As a footnote, components like the D'Agostino Relentless and the Boulder 2150/2160 Series amps take weeks longer to settle because of the thickness of their bottom plates. But, CS2 definitely works with them.

I hope this helps
 

nonesup

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Today two new pack of 4 Center Stage2 units have arrived, 1.5 for amplifier and 0.8 for Melco Switch (pending delivery by DHL). I think this is the best comment on what I found to be the 1.0 under my AC Kassandra.
 

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ack

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So, as Peter says, for the CS footers to apparently be super expansive on every recording must by definition be an imposed character. I know I heard imposed characters with a fair number of other footers systems I tried...Stillpoints, Mooks, Isoacoustics Gaias...and rejected them for those reasons.
FWIW, I seriously doubt it's an imposed character. Rather, like other products e.g. the Isodamp you may be using, simply attenuate mechanical noise which it then results in an expansive more 3-dimensional rendition, along with other benefits as well. This is exactly what I hear in here with every measure to deal with any sort of noise, electrical or mechanical. Basically, I interpret the results quite differently.
 

bazelio

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FWIW, I seriously doubt it's an imposed character. Rather, like other products e.g. the Isodamp you may be using, simply attenuate mechanical noise which it then results in an expansive more 3-dimensional rendition, along with other benefits as well. This is exactly what I hear in here with every measure to deal with any sort of noise, electrical or mechanical. Basically, I interpret the results quite differently.
It's not a terribly meaningful discussion one way or the other, but I'd agree with Marc. In my system, the coloration of CS2 footers could be measured by a new degree of "sameness" imposed across differing recordings, masterings, and musical genres. And speaking of color, another product I tried at the same time brought out granular tonal gradations that I'd not previously heard in my system with or without other aftermarket feet. I'd liken that experience, for those of my era, to the difference between 8-bit and 16-bit color on a computer monitor. This change enhanced my recognition of differences across my record collection. Was it a coloration of a different sort? Maybe. But, at least to me, it's far less intuitive to say so.
 
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ack

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CS2 footers could be measured by a new degree of "sameness" imposed across differing recordings, masterings, and musical genres
It all depends on what this "sameness" is all about. I assume we are not talking about a universally clearer and better sound.
 

PeterA

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It's not a terribly meaningful discussion one way or the other, but I'd agree with Marc. In my system, the coloration of CS2 footers could be measured by a new degree of "sameness" imposed across differing recordings, masterings, and musical genres. And speaking of color, another product I tried at the same time brought out granular tonal gradations that I'd not previously heard in my system with or without other aftermarket feet. I'd liken that experience, for those of my era, to the difference between 8-bit and 16-bit color on a computer monitor. This change enhanced my recognition of differences across my record collection. Was it a coloration of a different sort? Maybe. But, at least to me, it's far less intuitive to say so.

Brian, my experience with CS footers seems similar to yours. There was a sameness overlaying all recordings. Each time one set was removed from under a specific component, this sameness diminished, and a greater degree of differences emerged between each recording. It mostly affected the shaping of the soundstage, the listening perspective and the sense of immersion as has been described. I did not experience a universally clearer or better sound. My impression was then and remains, that the effect was a coloration.

This is distinct and very different from inserting a new preamp, cartridge, or set of power cords, for example, that increases the information presented from a system for a more natural presentation across recordings while simultaneously increasing their perceived differences.

I will note that I believe the sets that I heard were early versions and not of the current CS to version. I can’t remember the height of the footers I heard.
 
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joelavrencik

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I think the challenge of discussing “coloration” is that color is subjective, not quantifiable. But even though it is not quantifiable it is real and in this case the perception of coloration as “sameness” is definitely a negative. I agree. Sameness is a bad thing.

Below is a list of industry writers who use CS2 in their system(s) and, by extension, publish reviews in which our feet may have been used in the signal path to conduct product evaluations. The central purpose of a review is to express the fine details that make a particular component different from others. We see this expressed through, but not limited to, engineering details, componentry, sound attributes and sometimes comparisons to other products. It would be wildly off the mark to assume that anyone who’s job it is to express ultra-fine listening details and differences would use a product that makes everything sound the same. All of the Managing Editors, Editors-in-Chief, Executive Editors, Senior Writers and Writers listed below have weighed in positively on Center Stage2.

Also listed below are 2 award winning manufacturers who use our feet OEM on their products. Again, it would be wildly off the mark to assume that these companies use a product which homogenizes the performance of their components and just as off the mark to assume that anyone would review it.

The Absolute Sound -- Robert Haley, Jonathan Valin and Jacob Heilbrunn (USA)

HiFi+ - Alan Sircom (UK)

The Audio Analyst – Greg Weaver (USA)

Positive Feedback - Dr. David W. Robinson (USA)

A/V Showrooms - Peter Breuninger (USA)

Image HiFi - Christian Bayer (Germany)

Haute Fidelete – Bruno Castelluzzo and Dominique Mafrand (France)

Audio Technique - Lincoln Chen (Hong Kong)

Solution Audio – All 300, 500 and 700 Series components including DACs, Preamps, Phono stages, amplifiers, etc.

Karan Acoustics – All of the new Reference Line of products including DACs, Preamps, Phono stages, amplifiers, etc.
 
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nonesup

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I have no idea if these feet produce uniformity in sound or not. And I'm not going to talk about the usual characteristics of our drug addiction: bass, micro detail, dynamics ......... it is simply a wonderful and different sensation when listening to music. Is this a coloration? ....... I don't care exactly the same, if it is.
 

Tango

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My impression was that you had written here and elsewhere that when using the CS footers, listeners have an "immersive" experience and that they are transported to the venue, as in "I am there", meaning at the venue with the musicians, even up on stage I read somewhere, rather than "they are here" meaning in my listening room in front of me while I'm sitting on the couch.
.......This to me means that this characteristic of the music moving forward, and the listener being immersed in it, is overlaid onto the information from the recording and is heard on all the music you play.

That's how the CS footers present music when they were in my room. They are mind boggling. Totally changed how my system normally presents sound. Many people like them that way.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
That's how the CS footers present music when they were in my room. They are mind boggling. Totally changed how my system normally presents sound. Many people like them that way.
Hence the name Center Stage. There is something to be said about moving closer to the music. These are not the least bit colored and I would beg to differ that every song sounds the same.
 

joelavrencik

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Hello Steve,

I did not think I would be this involved in a discussion about audiophile footers, but now perhaps I am somewhat confused. My impression was that you had written here and elsewhere that when using the CS footers, listeners have an "immersive" experience and that they are transported to the venue, as in "I am there", meaning at the venue with the musicians, even up on stage I read somewhere, rather than "they are here" meaning in my listening room in front of me while I'm sitting on the couch.

Personally, I have both experiences when listening to music in my system, all highly dependent on the recording. Sometimes I am transported to the venue because the spatial cues of the choir singing in the stone cathedral are more apparent than is the signature of my listening room. This is because that information is on the recording and it is able to come through fairly uncorrupted by my system.

Other times, the singer and her guitar, or Miles and his band, are transported to my listening room, because the recording was made in a studio and is somewhat dry. There are few if any spatial cures on the recording to transport me to them there. The sonic signature of my room is now heard as the music moves around my room and the result is that the musicians are here in front of me at home.

You are writing that "...what you hear is ambiance, top to bottom expansion of the sound stage without any change in the sound and bringing the music forward to create a sense of immersion, which therefore moves you up into the soundstage creating that "I am there moment"."

This to me means that this characteristic of the music moving forward, and the listener being immersed in it, is overlaid onto the information from the recording and is heard on all the music you play. But then you write that if it is not on the recording, it is not there. What exactly is not there. The immersion? The music moving forward? Am I understanding you correctly or have I misunderstood what you wrote? When I heard the footers in my friend's system, I heard a similar effect on all of the music, regardless of the information on the recording. The soundstage, the breaking through the fourth wall, the sense of energy in the room was consistent regardless of recording. So in that sense, it seems we are hearing something similar.



It is difficult to assume how the designers intend their components to be heard as they have little idea how they will be set up in the customer's rack, or even what the rest of the system is, but surely they know how their gear sounds on its own feet when listened to at the factory. After all, they themselves chose the footers for their components for reasons, presumably sonic, and this is how they are sold to the customer.

How can you thus conclude that the designers intended their components to sound the way you hear them on the CS footers when they don't have those same footers when designing the component? Are you saying their component's potential is somehow known but locked up waiting to be revealed through the use of aftermarket footers in some customers' systems?
PeterA

It does not matter how anyone expresses what they hear. “I am there” and “They are here” are subjective expressions of perceptions with a personal definition attached for effect. This has nothing to do with the performance of the component. As an example, I just spoke with a loudspeaker designer who tested our LS feet under one of his models. The LS series is based directly upon the CS2 series. They do exactly the same thing, exactly the same way. He told me he was blown away by the performance of his loudspeakers on the LS feet, but he was a bit incredulous so he measured the frequency response of the loudspeakers after the feet were inserted. He told me the frequency response did not change; the frequency response of the loudspeakers was exactly the same with and without the feet, but the performance of the loudspeakers improved greatly when entropy was removed from the cabinet by the LS1.5 feet.

The only logical conclusion is that there is no, “I am there. There is no, “They are here”. There is no overlay of coloration. There is only improved performance brought about through the reduction of internal “system” resonance.

The beauty of our hobby is that we can hear music any way we want and express what we hear any way we want. Opinions are an individual right in audio. More importantly, no one is required to like what one hears when performance is improved. But by the same token, no one has the right to tell someone else that hearing improved performance is wrong.

All the Best

Joe
 

Muni

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would be interesting to know what the effect will be underneath the Extreme and on top of the Daiza platform
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
would be interesting to know what the effect will be underneath the Extreme and on top of the Daiza platform
I use CS2M 1.5's under my Extreme. They work superb under the Extreme. All of my electronics sit on these feet which are then sitting on CMS racks. They are not meant to sit on a Daiza platform
 

wil

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Steve, are you saying you have knowledge that contra-indicates using Panzerholtz like the Daiza under the cms footers? Can you be specific as to why this would be so? Thanks
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve, are you saying you have knowledge that contra-indicates using Panzerholtz like the Daiza under the cms footers? Can you be specific as to why this would be so? Thanks
I have always followed Joe's recommendation that all other tweaks be removed from the system so you can truly understand what Center Stage does. I am sure there must be people who are using both. My Extreme sits on a set of CS2M 1.5's which sits on Joes CMS platform . I am more than happy with the sonic results
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Wil

I thought this would be of interest to you and the readers....This is from Joe's White Paper......notice the last recommendation....


Your end of the Bargain, or Making the Experience Better

Center Stage2 is good for beginners and advanced listeners, so long as you exercise extreme patience during the settling period. Sonic fluctuations you may experience during the settling period will subside as time passes. Here’s what you need:

Components crafted by a known and reliable manufacturer. Your components do not need to be among the “most expensive” or the purported “best” in the world. You will experience excellent results with low cost components. A host of components were used to design Center Stage2M, some of them very low cost. This was done to assure consistency of performance. It is certainly true, however, that the better your components, the better your results.

Neutral wiring crafted by a known and reliable manufacturer. Some wiring is a “tone control”. Tone control wiring is not necessary. The more invisible your wire, the less it makes its presence known in your system, the better your results.

A Clean Circuit. It is critically important to make sure that “cheap” power supplies from computers, screens, servers and most turntables etc. are plugged into a circuit separate from the circuit servicing your main components. The dirt from these low-end plug-ins will contaminate your signal. You may not have heard it before, but you will certainly hear it with Center Stage2M.

Stable rack(s) and/or stand(s). Home furnishings are fine. Center Stage2M was vetted on various flat wooden surfaces with Janka ratings of 1200 and higher equating to an elastic modulus of 4 GPa or greater. This means that virtually any flat surface will net tremendous results. Having said this, the better the surface with respect to its associated and/or inherent technological properties, the better the results. The results on CMS racks is superlative.

Proper loudspeaker set up. This is essential. Center Stage2M was designed to be most effective in 2-channel stereo system listening rooms with conventional loudspeakers of appropriate size and design for the room, and with seating positions reasonable and appropriate for the loudspeaker and room dimensions.

When you put Center Stage in, pull every tweak out. Center Stage2M will take about 7 to 10 days to settle. Be slow, careful and cautious about adding any other device(s) back into your system. Adding Center Stage under more of your components is the only means to realizing the full “Total Immersion Effect” so highly valued in high end audio.
 

Kingsrule

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I really don't think Daiza is a tweak
It's a shelf just like any other in a system, just made from a different material
 
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