cartridge advice, $2k, 4-Point 14” and or Schroeder CB-1L

[wbass]

I’m adding the 4-Point 14 and CB-1L to my analog rig soon. Both purchased (used) and likely to be added to my SP10mk2.

I know these arms both call for some serious $5k and up carts, but for now, I’m going to stick to circa $2k.

I have a Koetsu Black that will go on one arm and am looking into contenders for the other. Perhaps something from Hana (Umami, at a stretch) or maybe a Kiseki Purpleheart?

I’ve also got an ART-9 but am not sure if it’s a good compliance match for these slightly heavier arms.

I know a lot of folks on here are playing at a different $$$ tier, but I’d welcome any recs. I’m not opposed to low hours or rebuilt carts. Thanks!

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Clearaudio make excellent cartridges at different price points.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

As you say koetsu are also stunning cartridges.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

I recently did a blind test for my audiophile friend on a Kuzma 4Point of three cartridges (a fourth was NOT blind) in which all cartridges had less than 5 hours on them and I had done a full cartridge analysis on all of them so they could be setup to within +-0.25 degrees of perfection on rake, azimuth and zenith. Each was mounted on a Kuzma headshell (removable, of course) with my custom made shim between them to dial in rake and azimuth. I was able to change cartridges (headshells, really) in less than 75 seconds and only adjust for cartridge height, loading and VTF. The azimuth change on the max tonearm height excursion was only 0.13 degrees, which equates to 1 dB of crosstalk balance change or less. I do not consider that a handicap for the tallest or shortest cartridge in the lot.

The cartridges were:
Dynavector XV1s ($5,700)
Hana Umami ($4,000)
Benz Micro ($4,800)

My subject liked the Benz best, followed by the Hana and then the Dynavector. Based upon what I heard standing behind him, I'd have to agree. The fourth cartridge was the Haniwa HCTR01 MkII which was not blind and definitely the favorite. Of course, the price would demand that.

I know these are out of your price range but you'd mentioned the Umami so I thought you might like to hear about this. There are plenty more blind tests of this sort in my future. They are a lot of fun and really easily repeatable. It is essential that setup quality is not a factor in such tests and the stylus/cantilever geometry is very well known and compensated for on each cartridge.

 

[wbass]

@J.R. Boisclair That sounds like a really interesting (and well thought out) comparison. Thanks for sharing that. I've heard the Umami (reason why it's on my list) and found it well behaved and "smooth" if I can use such a vague descriptor. Might be an interesting complement to the SPU Synergy G I have on my 401.

Keep the tests coming! I, for one, would like to hear about them!

 

[wbass]

I'm wondering if I could get away with one of the (many) modified DL103(R) carts out there on either the 4-Point 14 or CB-1L.... I have a regular DL103R in "The Cap," and it sounds fine. Nothing special to my mind, or anyway I'd much rather listen to the Synergy G. But I know that the likes of Zu Audio, Anamighty, and many others make some pricy (and seemingly well-regarded) mods to the Denon carts.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

I'm wondering if I could get away with one of the (many) modified DL103(R) carts out there on either the 4-Point 14 or CB-1L.... I have a regular DL103R in "The Cap," and it sounds fine. Nothing special to my mind, or anyway I'd much rather listen to the Synergy G. But I know that the likes of Zu Audio, Anamighty, and many others make some pricy (and seemingly well-regarded) mods to the Denon carts.

Audiophiles are only now starting to become aware of a much bigger problem than reducing tracking error by using longer tonearms or linear trackers - namely, that cartridges have a large tolerance for zenith error that does not correlate to price of cartridge. I have analyzed many carts and, while I have not yet tabulated the data set, I'd say the average zenith error is somewhere between 3.25 to 2.5 degrees (some 16-12 degree whoppers throw that off - without them it is closer to 2.5 to 2.25).

The tracking improvement you get from moving from a 9" to a 12" tonearm isn't even 0.5 degrees yet you take on the engineering challenges of longer tonearms - higher effective mass and inertia, reduced rigidity, higher cost, etc. We have to start looking at where we should be placing our efforts and money.

Suppliers to cartridge manufacturers (FIRST) and the manufacturers themselves need to get their act together. A fine-line contact stylus begins to behave like a conical stylus when zenith error is introduced due to pinch effect. It is basic geometry that dictates this. Not all of the groove will be read AND the stylus will be forced to move vertically when there is NO vertical modulation content (or horizontally, if the groove content is purely vertical) in order to pass through the groove.

 

[Solypsa]

Perhaps some intrepid soul [ perhaps @ J.R.Boisclair ] could buy styli assembly in bulk from the big 3, grade them and sell the good ones to all the cart manufacturers as a premium assembly?

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

Perhaps some intrepid soul [ perhaps @ J.R.Boisclair ] could buy styli assembly in bulk from the big 3, grade them and sell the good ones to all the cart manufacturers as a premium assembly?

I think I'd rather make them from scratch but that is BIG tooling $$$$.

Good stylus/cantilever assemblies don't keep some cartridge manufacturers from mounting them improperly inside the cartridge. I've seen some doozies!!!

 

[marty]

I recently did a blind test for my audiophile friend on a Kuzma 4Point of three cartridges (a fourth was NOT blind) in which all cartridges had less than 5 hours on them and I had done a full cartridge analysis on all of them so they could be setup to within +-0.25 degrees of perfection on rake, azimuth and zenith. Each was mounted on a Kuzma headshell (removable, of course) with my custom made shim between them to dial in rake and azimuth. I was able to change cartridges (headshells, really) in less than 75 seconds and only adjust for cartridge height, loading and VTF. The azimuth change on the max tonearm height excursion was only 0.13 degrees, which equates to 1 dB of crosstalk balance change or less. I do not consider that a handicap for the tallest or shortest cartridge in the lot.

The cartridges were:
Dynavector XV1s ($5,700)
Hana Umami ($4,000)
Benz Micro ($4,800)

My subject liked the Benz best, followed by the Hana and then the Dynavector. Based upon what I heard standing behind him, I'd have to agree. The fourth cartridge was the Haniwa HCTR01 MkII which was not blind and definitely the favorite. Of course, the price would demand that.

I know these are out of your price range but you'd mentioned the Umami so I thought you might like to hear about this. There are plenty more blind tests of this sort in my future. They are a lot of fun and really easily repeatable. It is essential that setup quality is not a factor in such tests and the stylus/cantilever geometry is very well known and compensated for on each cartridge.

A laudable experiment, but why on earth would you want to do that with only 5 hours on each cartridge? That seems unlikely to discern the true character of any of the cartridges tested.

By the way, loved Fremer's new treatise on cartridge set-up with the new WallyTools in August Stereophile. When I complete my Ph.D. on figuring out how to use it, I just might give it a try!

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

A laudable experiment, but why on earth would you want to do that with only 5 hours on each cartridge? That seems unlikely to discern the true character of any of the cartridges tested.

By the way, loved Fremer's new treatise on cartridge set-up with the new WallyTools in August Stereophile. When I complete my Ph.D. on figuring out how to use it, I just might give it a try!

I'd certainly have preferred them all to have at least 40 hours on them but I didn't have that luxury. At least they were all equally handicapped. Might one of them have had a larger transformation than another? Perhaps!

As for the second point, it IS a pretty big learning curve, but the rewards are there for those who take the journey. Certainty and optimization are worth some effort, no?

 

[Arcus7]

Lyra Kleos SL, Phasemation PP-2000 or Etsuro Urushi Cobalt Blue with low hrs would be me recommendation...

 

[No Regrets]

I recently did a blind test for my audiophile friend on a Kuzma 4Point of three cartridges (a fourth was NOT blind) in which all cartridges had less than 5 hours on them and I had done a full cartridge analysis on all of them so they could be setup to within +-0.25 degrees of perfection on rake, azimuth and zenith. Each was mounted on a Kuzma headshell (removable, of course) with my custom made shim between them to dial in rake and azimuth. I was able to change cartridges (headshells, really) in less than 75 seconds and only adjust for cartridge height, loading and VTF. The azimuth change on the max tonearm height excursion was only 0.13 degrees, which equates to 1 dB of crosstalk balance change or less. I do not consider that a handicap for the tallest or shortest cartridge in the lot.

The cartridges were:
Dynavector XV1s ($5,700)
Hana Umami ($4,000)
Benz Micro ($4,800)

My subject liked the Benz best, followed by the Hana and then the Dynavector. Based upon what I heard standing behind him, I'd have to agree. The fourth cartridge was the Haniwa HCTR01 MkII which was not blind and definitely the favorite. Of course, the price would demand that.

I know these are out of your price range but you'd mentioned the Umami so I thought you might like to hear about this. There are plenty more blind tests of this sort in my future. They are a lot of fun and really easily repeatable. It is essential that setup quality is not a factor in such tests and the stylus/cantilever geometry is very well known and compensated for on each cartridge.

I apologize for the lateness of this post but I have just now come across it. If you happen to remember, I was wondering about the following....

What length 4Point were you using?

Which table and phono stage and if applicable, which SUT were you using?

Which Benz Micro were you using?

Thank you so much for sharing and I hope you do more comparisons for us all

Best wishes to you,
Don

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

I apologize for the lateness of this post but I have just now come across it. If you happen to remember, I was wondering about the following....

What length 4Point were you using?

Which table and phono stage and if applicable, which SUT were you using?

Which Benz Micro were you using?

Thank you so much for sharing and I hope you do more comparisons for us all

Best wishes to you,
Don

Standard 4Point
SME 30
Pass XP25
Ruby Z

I'll be able to do more A-B blind tests in the future.

 

[DasguteOhr]

for 2k$ zyx ultimate 100 work fine with kuzma, kuzma also sells renamed zyx kc2 or kc4 cartridges. Kuzma wouldn't do that if it didn't harmonize. In a Schroeder too

ZYX - Ultimate 100 H Tonabnemer - Hifi Studio Falkensee - Berlin

ZYX - Ultimate 100 H Tonabnemer: Die neue Ultimate-Serie von ZYX kommt mit dem weltweit einzigartigen C-1000 Nadelträger aus Karbonfasern. Die Vorteile des Karbon-Verbundmaterials liegen in der sehr hohen Steifigkeit bei geringem Gewicht. So ist das von ZYX entwickelte Material steifer als...

www.berlin-hifi.de

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

what about a classic EMT TSD 15 on such a classic tt.....

 

[jfrech]

The Clearaudio cartridges are an excellent match for the 4 point. I'm using a ClearAudio Goldfinger Statement on my 4 point. They have models at and above your price point. The Lyra Delos is also great. Good luck !

 

[wbass]

Thanks, all, for the suggestions. (Holy necro'd thread!) Right now I have a Koetsu Black on the CB-1L and a Kuzma CAR-40 on the 4 Point 14.