As per DonH50 Why is thin better of audio cables in my ICE system?

[muralman1]

At Don's private idea mill, he said most commercial cables handle skin effect very well. I confess, I don't know the real deal about how cable configuration handle skin effect. I only know that for darn sure, the cable cross section has a lot more to do with it's ultimate performance, than any artful cable design.

I will supply a short history of my audio decampment and and departure away from the mainline audio discussion.

It all centers around a bi-star, a speaker twenty five years old, plus a remarkable audio designer. The speaker, Apogee Scintilla, is Apogee's best effort designing a true full range speaker. It's prodigious bass panel is capable of flatlining through 20 dB. A vertical mid ribbon is amidst twin arching tweeter ribbons. This arrangement assures a single voice. The ribbons sag just beyond straight, allowing air to modulate ribbon excitation alone. The lack of a spring allows highs to soar beyond hearing without stress.

Hung Ho is the designer of my preamp and mono amps. He also modified my Audio Note DAC. Hung started his amp making with fabulous class A amps. When he began experimenting with class D, his strong knowledge of power supply application served us well. I am not an engineer. What significance lies in his circuit boards augmenting the ICE module can only be explained by Hung. Hung has also created a preamp that I would be happy challenging any preamp at any price. It literally is hot to the touch. I can't really explain what it does on it's own, because it is integral to powering the 76 Db 1 µ Scintillas.

One day, a dealer brought Cardas Golden Reference speaker cables, and Jenna speaker cables. On hand were Speltz speaker wires(unmodified), and some Radio Shack. Also on hand were some weird thin ribbon Al/Cu cables.

The outcome could never been more obvious

An ascending list:

5) Radio Shack: This cable was double whammed by being braided and insulated with poor quality plastic. It's report was soft. Braided cords just sound that way.

4) Cardas GDR: The infusion of static from it's copious hose insulation overcame what music was getting through.

3) Jenna: This cable had all the looks of four Radio Shack cables laid on a zigzag in and out pattern with four more. Somehow, it managed to better the Radio Shack. I surmise that just might be for the Jenna's smaller gauge per wire. This would mean much less braid softening.

2) Speltz wire. This was so far the clearest of the bunch save one. That should be enough, and would put it at the top of this short list. It's negatives included coloring of the music through congealing of the stage, and rounding off the extremes.

1) Only there was one more pair of cables left to go. It consisted 1 .003" 12 gauge all 9's copper and a thin Al ribbon, Alcoa I believe, or was it Reynolds? Putting the copper ribbon on the positive and the aluminum for the negative, upstaged all the above and by a huge margin. This cable produced firsts in clarity, dynamics, separation, and frequency extension and even-handedness.

Conclusion: With Hung Ho's gear, my breakthrough SCs (For this system purpose) and the geniuses who brought us Apogee Acoustics, Audio Note, and 47 Lab, harness a simple, if not laughable on paper, musical victory.

My system proves less is more in audio, if you want the best with ICE technology. For this topic, my cables screwy as one can assume, are by far the best there is..... in this system.

 

[fas42]

Vince, I think you've described this before but could you mention again how you insulated the ribbon cables, or stopped them touching each other. Also, are they just lying on a wooden or carpeted floor, or are they elevated in some way?

Thanks,
Frank

 

[DonH50]

OK, I'll bite... Note my nom de plume is actually DonH50: Don for, well, Don! -- H for Herman, and 50 the age when I joined this fair site. A year-plus older now, probably not much wiser. My Grandmother used to say age does not necessarily bring wisdom, sometimes it just turns young fools into old fools. She would often say this after Grandfather did something, shall we say, less than brilliant. I admit I wouldn't mind taking a decade off...

Here are my comments/guesses:

5. If (+) and (-) wires were braided together, the capacitance would be higher, potentially introducing a bit of HF roll-off and possibly decreasing amplifier stability. Class D amps generally do not like high-capacitance loads. I suspect, however, the primary issue with the cable is simply not enough conductors, effectively reducing the effective damping factor and thus control of those 1-ohm panels by the amp.

4. Cardas "GDR" = golden reference? It has very high capacitance, about 10 times that of regular cables, but is litz construction with AWG 5 equivalent. I don't know what "constant Q means; I imagine there's a white paper on the site but ave not looked. Again I suspect the added capacitance hurts it's performance a bit, though again into a 1 ohm load you'd think it wouldn't matter much. The class D amp may not like the extra nF+ of capacitance; I would guess that is it's issue.

3. If it is similar to the RS but has more wires, then the larger gauge (lower numerically) is likely why it bettered the RS. It does not take much wire resistance to hurt the damping factor into very low-impedance speakers, and planar speakers tend to like high damping to control panel resonances and (electromechanical) ringing.

2. The AntiCables look like more typical wire from their specs, with reasonably average inductance, capacitance (when twisted together; much lower when kept apart -- how did you have them run?), and resistance. Interestingly, the resistance per foot puts it a hair smaller than regular 14 AWG wire, not an overly large gauge for speakers, especially low-impedance Apogees...

1. The ribbons in this case have essentially zero impact from skin effect due to their thin construction, and so will act like a "pure" 12-gauge wire. With low capacitance, probably 1/10th the Cardas, I can see why this would make it the winner. Would I have picked it not knowing? Hard to say... My first guess would be the largest (lowest number gauge) would win driving your Apogees, giving the nod to the Cardas. However, knowing most Class D amps do not like high capacitance, in hindsight it is easy to see why this one would win in your system. As a matter of fact, it should be a winner, or at least strong contender, in any system. I would guess the Al strand is larger (thicker, wider, or both) to offset it's higher resistance. I do not see any reason to run an Al strand instead of two copper, but it is not something I have considered.

Your Apogees are likely somewhat more sensitive to cable resistance, and your amps somewhat more sensitive to capacitance, so the combination of low-C and low-R should make for a winner in your system. Other systems may be more or less sensitive to these parameters, naturally. Synergy does matter at times.

I have yet to develop speaker and amplifier models so won't go further now. I am curious to see what others have to say about mine and their own hypotheses.

Thanks for the thread! - Don

 

[muralman1]

Vince, I think you've described this before but could you mention again how you insulated the ribbon cables, or stopped them touching each other. Also, are they just lying on a wooden or carpeted floor, or are they elevated in some way?

Thanks,
Frank

I made cradles to apply a very sticky Kapton tape, much thinner than the copper or aluminum. I keep the same width to insertion of the spade. Kapton is an amazing substance. My speaker terminals are elevated, so the ribbons gently curve upward from the amp terminals, turned around backwards.

 

[fas42]

My speaker terminals are elevated, so the ribbons gently curve upward from the amp terminals, turned around backwards.

So the cables never actually touch the floor at any point between the amplifier and the speaker terminals?

Frank

 

[amirm]

Thread title fixed .

 

[muralman1]

Thread title fixed .

Hi Amir... Still considering a purchase of the Green Egg.

 

[amirm]

Hi Amir... Still considering a purchase of the Green Egg.

Excellent. That would be the one to get if you believe in skin effect. If you believe in thickness is more important, Grildome is a better choice with ticker walls . http://grilldome.com/

 

[muralman1]

OK, I'll bite... Note my nom de plume is actually DonH50: Don for, well, Don! -- H for Herman, and 50 the age when I joined this fair site. A year-plus older now, probably not much wiser. My Grandmother used to say age does not necessarily bring wisdom, sometimes it just turns young fools into old fools. She would often say this after Grandfather did something, shall we say, less than brilliant. I admit I wouldn't mind taking a decade off...

Here are my comments/guesses:

5. If (+) and (-) wires were braided together, the capacitance would be higher, potentially introducing a bit of HF roll-off and possibly decreasing amplifier stability. Class D amps generally do not like high-capacitance loads. I suspect, however, the primary issue with the cable is simply not enough conductors, effectively reducing the effective damping factor and thus control of those 1-ohm panels by the amp.

4. Cardas "GDR" = golden reference? It has very high capacitance, about 10 times that of regular cables, but is litz construction with AWG 5 equivalent. I don't know what "constant Q means; I imagine there's a white paper on the site but ave not looked. Again I suspect the added capacitance hurts it's performance a bit, though again into a 1 ohm load you'd think it wouldn't matter much. The class D amp may not like the extra nF+ of capacitance; I would guess that is it's issue.

3. If it is similar to the RS but has more wires, then the larger gauge (lower numerically) is likely why it bettered the RS. It does not take much wire resistance to hurt the damping factor into very low-impedance speakers, and planar speakers tend to like high damping to control panel resonances and (electromechanical) ringing.

2. The AntiCables look like more typical wire from their specs, with reasonably average inductance, capacitance (when twisted together; much lower when kept apart -- how did you have them run?), and resistance. Interestingly, the resistance per foot puts it a hair smaller than regular 14 AWG wire, not an overly large gauge for speakers, especially low-impedance Apogees...

1. The ribbons in this case have essentially zero impact from skin effect due to their thin construction, and so will act like a "pure" 12-gauge wire. With low capacitance, probably 1/10th the Cardas, I can see why this would make it the winner. Would I have picked it not knowing? Hard to say... My first guess would be the largest (lowest number gauge) would win driving your Apogees, giving the nod to the Cardas. However, knowing most Class D amps do not like high capacitance, in hindsight it is easy to see why this one would win in your system. As a matter of fact, it should be a winner, or at least strong contender, in any system. I would guess the Al strand is larger (thicker, wider, or both) to offset it's higher resistance. I do not see any reason to run an Al strand instead of two copper, but it is not something I have considered.

Your Apogees are likely somewhat more sensitive to cable resistance, and your amps somewhat more sensitive to capacitance, so the combination of low-C and low-R should make for a winner in your system. Other systems may be more or less sensitive to these parameters, naturally. Synergy does matter at times.

I have yet to develop speaker and amplifier models so won't go further now. I am curious to see what others have to say about mine and their own hypotheses.

Thanks for the thread! - Don

Thank you for your friendly reply. I believe the general audience think my cables heresy, or just plain nutty inferring I don't know what music sounds like. I apologize for my not getting your name wrong. Given the amps I am using are H2O, I struggle with similar names. Ah baloney, I was too lazy to refresh my memory.

I think my choice for aluminum to carry the negative signal needs clarification. I got the idea through two observations. One is Paul Speltz's note the negative cable in his very able interconnects is made of much smaller wire, because it does less work. It was no secret five feet of the negative signal carrier is aluminum. Carrying the aluminum the last few feet seemed the natural thing to do.

One important point should be made here. You ask why not use copper for both cables? I don't know, except when I switched polarities, the sound suffered miserably.

 

[DonH50]

No worries, though I must protest that posting a public thread in a public forum hardly constitutes a "private idea mill". I do prefer to keep the techie threads more focused, but whatever.

Switching to Al wire in a smaller gauge adds series resistance, decreasing the load on the amp and isolating the speaker's impedance from the amp. I would guess the amp is happier running that way.

Since current flow going in must equal current flow going out it makes little sense to me why switching polarities matters. The only thing that comes to mind is some sort of interaction among amp and crossover/drivers that makes the system polarity-sensitive.

In the end all that really matters is that you found the perfect synergistic blend among components, speakers, and cables for you. Pretty much all any of us can ask for! - Don

p.s. In terms of performance and my explanations, I am not sure skin effect is a significant factor in any of the choices; I tend to think the differences you hear are due to other factors.

 

[fas42]

p.s. In terms of performance and my explanations, I am not sure skin effect is a significant factor in any of the choices; I tend to think the differences you hear are due to other factors.

I agree -- and just to remind you, Vince, could you clarify whether the cables touch the floor at any point between the amplifier and the speaker terminals?

Thanks,
Frank

 

[muralman1]

I agree -- and just to remind you, Vince, could you clarify whether the cables touch the floor at any point between the amplifier and the speaker terminals?

Thanks,
Frank

Frank, I did so. The speaker inputs are up some two feet from the floor. My amps are turned around. That leaves the travel for the cables straight up. They hang in the air, making all pretty.

 

[fas42]

Frank, I did so. The speaker inputs are up some two feet from the floor. My amps are turned around. That leaves the travel for the cables straight up. They hang in the air, making all pretty.

Sorry, Vince, my fault, I didn't follow what you were saying correctly! So you have a very short run as well, which will certainly help matters.

Of interest even more so then, the other cables you tried as mentioned in the earlier post, were these just as short, or were they long enough to be coiled up or otherwise sitting on the floor?

Frank

 

[muralman1]

No worries, though I must protest that posting a public thread in a public forum hardly constitutes a "private idea mill". I do prefer to keep the techie threads more focused, but whatever.

Switching to Al wire in a smaller gauge adds series resistance, decreasing the load on the amp and isolating the speaker's impedance from the amp. I would guess the amp is happier running that way.

Since current flow going in must equal current flow going out it makes little sense to me why switching polarities matters. The only thing that comes to mind is some sort of interaction among amp and crossover/drivers that makes the system polarity-sensitive.

In the end all that really matters is that you found the perfect synergistic blend among components, speakers, and cables for you. Pretty much all any of us can ask for! - Don

p.s. In terms of performance and my explanations, I am not sure skin effect is a significant factor in any of the choices; I tend to think the differences you hear are due to other factors.

Let's look at Speltz's ICs. I don't know the gauges of the positive and negative. I do know this. The red curly wire is the positive, and the, "No see-em," wire in the middle is the negative. I bet if you were two switch the two wires, the sound would suffer as well. I can also say this, admitting without having tried too many interconnects, if many other interconnects on the market are as good as the Speltz ICs then all is good!

There is more to know concerning audio. There is much more to know. The ascendancy of class D, with ICE leading requires a re-thinking of how to engineer great music. Less worrying of the music signal is tantamount. I have been saying the extra chips outside the basic needs of interpreting the digital to analog are not only not necessary, they are a detriment. There is more that I am learning. No longer is it just ok to get the smallest number of parts on any player, it has to be the shortest, as well.

With this slitting my wrists I bid everyone so-long for now. I am of failing health, and there are greater things to be doing than arguing. Listening to great music comes first to mind.

Vince

 

[fas42]

Vince, I'm very sorry to hear that your health is not the best! My very best wishes for whatever's needed to get you in better shape, and of course, good music should be a very big part of it!!

Best regards,
Frank

 

[amirm]

Get better Vince. The forum will wait .

 

[mullard88]

Hope you feel better soon Vincent.

Sam

 

[Dr_jitsu]

I know I am 6 weeks late to the party, but....

Did I miss it, or should it just be an assumption that the listening was double blind, yes?

And get well.

 

[muralman1]

I know I am 6 weeks late to the party, but....

Did I miss it, or should it just be an assumption that the listening was double blind, yes?

And get well.

ALS is measured in how fast the disease weakens all muscle groups. Concerning the state of my system acuity there is no need of double blind testing.