AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

[Zeotrope]

Makes sense. I believe you shared before, but what do you have in your ATVX chain?

I'm using Shunyata Denali v2 for all video components, and I was using Teddy Pardo linear PSUs for the Lumagen 5348.
So the video chain is:
Denali -> ATVX -> (Teddy Pardo) Lumagen 5348 -> JVC NZ9

I recently upgraded the Teddy Pardo PSUs to Farad System10, but they have not arrived yet.

 

[Xymox]

Here you go. View attachment 152807View attachment 152808

I have a dual stack switch and access point you should try

 

[Xymox]

Mark Levinson did a interview recently and really nailed my buis model. I am doing new engineering and I make every one myself, like making a fine musical instrument. I do not want to be big. Nice to see someone else with the same mindset as myself.

 

[Xymox]

OOoooooo...

I am finishing up something new.. Its proving to be quite suprizing..

I have done a ton of mods + new noise canceling linear on a ASUS 13 Pro i7. The main focus is a roon core, but, it can run Linux, Windows 11 and more. Hooked to a Switch X stack and then hooked to a ATVX working as a end point for roon this has been pretty stunning doing 2 ch music. It could also work as a high end audio NAS if linux was run. The main goal is a killer 2ch audio server. BUT. It can also do a stunning number of video based things and even run Windows 11 and do all the stuff it can do.

People have been after me to make a NUC X.. Well, I did..

It still has some testing to go by my distributor who has showrooms full-o-gear and tons of gear to AB against. Stepping into the crowded 2ch audio server arena is pretty intense, but, as far as I know, no one has used active load analysis and design and addressed jitter on the whole chain like CPU/RAM/SSD/NVMe/SATA/USB/Ethernet before.. Plus using a r-core based noise canceling linear is unprecedented in a server.

I am waiting now for some high performance RAM and a high performance NVMe SSD. I should be ready to ship production in about 3-4 weeks.

Besides all the dejittering of CPU & busses and stuff, I did some extra work on ethernet and on USB.

 

[Davidny]

Hi Chris
This is terrific news. If NUC X achieves similar results to ATVX, Switch X and WiFi X this will be something special. Can’t wait to hear it.
And FYI Greg Weaver just posted a well deserved, glowing endorsement of your Switch X and WiFi X

 

[Xymox]

Hi Chris
This is terrific news. If NUC X achieves similar results to ATVX, Switch X and WiFi X this will be something special. Can’t wait to hear it.
And FYI Greg Weaver just posted a well deserved, glowing endorsement of your Switch X and WiFi X

I just watched that. he did a TERRIFIC job describing the tech side in simple terms.

Exactly same alchemy I do on the Switch X and ATVX I applied to the NUC X. My distributor will need to get it and run it thru its paces and ABs. I never mention what i think about my own products, I would be biased, hahaha.. But, from a technical standpoint using a lot advanced measurements and using the active load test rig, this NUC is producing some impressive numbers. I always focus on the technical specs, things I can measure. The NUC X project has been really cool with the huge improvements I was able to make. Its also just been fun to do insanity level low noise on the USB along with ultra high precision volatge supply for it,, as just one example. This NUC feeds USB devcies with a insanely low noise high precision power supply. This is good because a lot of people use things like external USB drives for thier music.

Just today I got some really good RAM. Lower latency high performance. This made a difference. As the supply feeding that RAM is also insanely low noise high precision, that is some happy ram.. RAM really matters as everything for audio is sitting in RAM. File buffering, playout buffering.. RAM is really important.

I will get the fastest NVMe this week and that will complete the config. The NVMe SSD is also fed crazy good power. So is the internal SATA SSD slot..

I will talk about the design philospy later, but, IMHO, A huge server grade motherboard and dual Xeon CPUs is counter productive because this adds noise and a larger board produces more jitter - thats just physics. As doing roon core using nearly no power or CPU % a big powerful CPU and MB are not the best way. IMHO. Audio use for just some sort of NAS/roon is best served using a much smaller system that has way less RF noise, less thermal noise and shorter trace lengths. IMHO..

With the reviews that have landed and the NUC X development right now, please excuse delays from me in responding to things. There is a lot going on

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Just saw a video on Youtube on the new Appletv4k coming out this September. He stated and showed that it is smaller than the otherwise latest 2022 model, which is a good amount smaller than the 2021 model which Chris mods. Chris has often stated how the 2021 model is built for effective modding, not the smaller later model. So I anticipate Chris will not be interested in modding it - though I bet Chris will get one to examine anyway.

 

[Xymox]

Video link ?

Apple announced a new ATV ? I watched the whole last dev conference and there was nothing about that.

YES, I would LOVE to make a better ATVX. I would jump immd into one and have one first day I could get one as a developer. That would be awesome of course because it would look and sound better, not to mention all the owners of ATVXs now might buy the new ones so it would mean lots of sales..

HOWEVER....

The odds of that happening are very very very slim. The last one was a HUGE drop in quality and was focused on profit on a shrinking market. The A2169 electronic design is stunning. Its built more like a piece of $100k test equipment with each section of the circuits indivdually shielded from each other using RF gaskets and blocks of metal. This radically isolates noise from the CPU and regulators getting into the HDMI and ethernet. This was completely eliminated from the most recent design resulting in a huge unfixable increase in noise on the HDMI which induces jitter. The board layout is nearly comical VS the A2169. The A2169 they obviously lost money on it and did so to promote Apple TV because TVs did not always come with apps and to reach older TVs that did not have apps. That requirement has gone away, TVs come with Apple TV preinstalled or run android and its a few clicks away. Im not even sure why Apple would come out with a new ATV as the market for them left years back. SO I have a hard time believing anything Apple would do would bring back all that hard core, big, heavy, engineering that makes the A2169 so good.

They do HAVE to update it if they want to keep selling them tho becuase they stop making older chips each year. So A ATV *MUST* be new each year or so.

What could they add ? No new sound formats. 8K is not a thing. Dolby Vision works pretty well as is. CODECs are perfect for what streaming companies are doing. BUT.. I could see them waving the marketing magic wand around sprinkling AI pixie dust all over.. Thanks, but no thanks, I have seen the results of that in high end post production work and in the Nvidia Shield, nope, thats, pass.

BUT... I am VERY open to being wrong. That would be GREAT...

I will not however sacrifice pic/sound quality for AI pixie dust or marketing " newer is better " BS.

1. It would have to at least equal the pic & sound quality of the current ATV. No exception.
2. It would have to bring some meaningful benifit to the avg high end AV user.

OR.. Its just a better pic & sound after mods then the ATVX...

Now what might happen.. Maybe.. Is I might get better pic/sound from this new NUC X. While not Apple based, that might be fun. I am not done with evaul, but, I think I am already getting better sound via HDMI. If only I could run Apple TVos on it. But this would be far less GUI friendly to operate.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

I think the big reason Apple is coming out with a new more "powerful" Appletv4k is to attract gamers to their online gaming. Plus as the old chips are discontinued they need a new model for the new chips. Plus the new model will also handle not only Dolby Vision, but also HDR10+. But with much poorer build quality it simply can't be effectively modded to have picture and sound like what you have done with your Appletv-X (Cinemike mods the current model, but doesn't include an external hardwired with short cable linear power supply, so no way it will have the quality that Chris' has).

 

[Xymox]

God,, have you tried the apple gaming ? Oh gawd its awful. Even a 10 year old would go WTF. I think they just use that as a excuse to explain away the redesign they were forced to do because they HAD TO to use the only production chip.. Ive built many a gaming PC all overclocked and water cooled. I used to game.. The ATV is a joke. Your WAY better pairing your phone to the ATV and using the phone to game. So no need for any power change to do this.

Its gonna be magic pixie dust AI.. That will "Improve picture"... Riiiggghhhttttt... Suuuuurree.. So lets toss out pic and sound quality to add AI ? haha.. No...

I donno.. I want to see a official apple announcement. With a vastly dwindling market, I just dont see why they would even continue making a ATV.

DolbyVision I think is a better platform then HDR10+. Of course DolbyVision is a licensing fee, so, some mfgrs dont like paying it. I think the mfgrs not using Dolby Vision need to get onboard.

Dolby Vision has gotten good these days with firmware updates on the ATVX and Sony OLED TVs. Well and the right TV settings.

I would love to do a better ATV, but, I just dont think that will happen. I dont see them going back to that level of cost for a tiny and dwindling market.

 

[Xymox]

Done hardware wise.. Gonna play with OSs and software stuff now.. Getting closer.. The display can turn off with a switch.

 

[Robert_NP]

The other night my Apple TV flashed a message that there was an upgrade ready to download. I am running tvOS 18.5 and I see the current version is 18.6. I read that Netflix upgraded their interface to integrate better with Apple TV, so I wonder if this is part of it. As we were advised to be careful with updates, is 18.6 safe to download and install?

 

[Xymox]

I am on the development beta with all my units at the moment. I will back up and check the current stable 18.6. Right this minute however I am in the middle of taking some pics for the dejitterit web site for all the products including the new NUC X, so, let me finish up that and later today I will hook back up the ATVX and go check that firmware. SO FAR all the stable releases have been fine. Even the developer beta is mostly OK although the audio continues to have some odd stutters when you start playing something that last like 1/3 of a sec. Not really a bother, just odd.

Also there still is no sign of a audio bitstream option which is still all vaporware.

I will report back this evening.

 

[Xymox]

I was just reading release notes. I have not tested yet. As with ANY firmware or OS update on ANY device its ALWAYS important to review release notes PRIOR to installing ANY update. The most important consideration is "DOES IT ADDRESS SOMETHING I NEED"..

ALL OS/Firmware updates on ANY device comes with the risk of new bugs or issues. The firmware/OS you have on something you know works, once you update you no longer can be sure things will work the same for a while. A firmware/OS becomes trusted. There is a LOT of software science on this subject with NASA doing a lot of the science and math work on software reliability.

DONT FIX IT IF ITS NOT BROKE... its a VERY important credo in software.

Risk comes with any update. Its a mathematical certainty. The trick is does the gain outweigh the risk.

You can mitigate risk by waiting a while after a update hits before doing the update. This allows any issues to come to the surface and get worked out by others before you update.

Benifit / risk can be researched by looking at firmware/OS release notes.

"I read that Netflix upgraded their interface to integrate better with Apple TV" Usually this is done in the Netflix developed app. So normally this is not dependent on a update to the OS. BUT. Maybe..

In the 18.6 update no other change was made other then to update Xcode. BUT. Xcode is how apps run.. But Xcode is on all Apple devices and not specific to TVos.

The TVos release note seems to just update the version of XCode. No issues addressed or features added unlike previous updates. So this update seems to be very limited in what it does. As it just addresses XCode, these changes cant affect pic quality or sound,, but, could affect how apps work. SO, this looks pretty safe. BUT I dont see any obvious benefit.

In fact it looks like the only change is for "on-device debugging" so this update would appear to only to fix some issues that only app software programmers would need.

TVos release notes. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/tvos-release-notes/tvos-18_6-release-notes

The Xcode update does have some significant changes that *might* be related to apps on TVos. Most of the changes in XCode tho look like they are aimed at other devices like Macs and other things not on ATVs.

Xcode release notes https://developer.apple.com/documentation/Xcode-Release-Notes/xcode-16_4-release-notes

I will load it later this evening and report back.

BTW, if your set to manual updates, you will get that notice when a new version is avaliable. It does not indicate a need for it, its just a notice it exists.

Also BTW.. Developer Beta tvOS 26 DOES have significant improvements in the GUI and features. Pic and sound are still the same so far. Everyone will want to go to tvOS 26 after it has been out for a few weeks to work out any bugs,, I will test it fully as it nears stable release.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

DONT FIX IT IF ITS NOT BROKE... its a VERY important credo in software.

...as Svetlana, my former software QA resource used to say: "You push, you break."

 

[Robert_NP]

Thanks for the feedback, Chris. I will wait for your thumbs up before attempting any update.

 

[Xymox]

...as Svetlana, my former software QA resource used to say: "You push, you break."

HAHAHA.....

EXACTLY....

Every push of new software breaks SOMETHING, hahaha.. This is also plagued by Murphy's law too, even if your test environment was perfect and your beta went perfect and its pushed, something will break. Its really just math, NASA showed mathematically that for each line of code software is less reliable,, and there are now millions of lines of code in everything, so, there is ZERO chance there is not a bug. In fact there are a @#$!~ ton of bugs, but, people get used to buggy code and reboot and tolerate the issues. Every device i know of has a long list of current issues, many will never be addressed. For example, a lot of people consider Windows 2000 the most reliable windows platform and Windows 11 the least. In *nix OSs its getting more buggy each year. And YES Apple users, you have bugs in your Apples.

As a example... Turns out Apple took away the ability to go backwards in firmware it seems when i went to tvOS 26. I can no longer go back to stable 18.6.. BUT of course i have lots of ATVXs, so I broke out a new one and went to 18.6. It sounds fine, looks fine. I do not see anything obvious wrong.

Further looking around shows there is a security update that comes with 18.6 not covered in the release notes,,, jeeze Apple has terrible documentation.. So I guess I suggest updating. Its hard to ever know whats in Apple updates.

About the security content of tvOS 18.6 - Apple Support

This document describes the security content of tvOS 18.6.

support.apple.com

The above said,,,

I know people who have a pathological need, and MUST, update things. It becomes a fixation. They need to go to Update Anonymous. This kinda goes with people thinking newer is better, which it rarely is. I even suffer from this at times too. I will update something I KNOW I should go look up first, check forums for others that have updated and make sure its OK BEFORE I update, but, nope, I push the big red button.. So I get it.. Look I bricked a ATVX.

So a few examples of why updating is dangerous and running betas is clearly dangerous. I run the dev betas to watch for any new features or any issues before they come out. Because i make the ATVXs and I need to keep you guys good, dev beta is required for me. So I was playing with a Lumagen and I was playing with weird output formats and forcing the ATVX to spit out odd HDMI formats. I dont remember which one did it, but I was playing with things like 1080 23.98, 24, 25 and so on.. So I changed formats on the lumigen which forced the ATVX to change formats. Black screen. Flashing white LED on the from of the ATVX. It was flashing some pattern, like 4-3-4 or something. It was not possible to fix it. It was corrupted, BRICKED.. I had to toss it. No doubt some bug that caused something to corrupt. Something Apple never tested for.. I tried the stable tvOS and it was fine. Something in the Dev Beta caused bricking.

This is why I wont support a ATVX if it runs beta. I do not want any ATVX user running beta. WEIRD things can happen..

Right now its not possible to back up to 18 once you go to 26. So if some issue occurs in 26, NO GOING BACK..

I dont see anything wrong with 18.6, but, I cant possibly check everything.

 

[Xymox]

roon can see the ATVX.. Not that I recommend this, as streaming RAAT to a roon end point is obviously better.

 

[Robert_NP]

As it turned out, as I was watching TV last night, my screen went blank. Oh oh, what button on the remote did I press by mistake? Lots of panicked button pressing, on/off, nothing helped. I changed inputs and went to the programming from my Sony TV. It was working, but it also indicated an update was available. I was asking about an ATVX earlier that day, and here I thought I jinxed myself, that the electronic Gods were pulling my chain. Why would a potential ATV update kick off a chain reaction for a Sony update? It didn't; guess it is update season. I let the Sony update and all was well, then went back to the ATVX and all was good there. Phew. Opened Netflix and whoa! New Netflix interface. I have ATVX set to allow apps to update (but not the ATV software itself) and Netflix must have updated itself, as well, hence the scary pause on the ATVX. Just sharing...

 

[Xymox]

The state of the software industry has degraded every year almost since its inception. The bloat issue is deeply rooted in psychology. Software bloat is overwhelmingly the main issue facing security and bug hunters. Its HUGE mess and is on a moore's law curve. At some point laws and regulation is required. Just like there are regulations, codes, standards for things like sky scrapers and bridges, we need serious structure and enforcement in software. We need GUI standards. Every point of sale credit card reader DOES NOT need a completely different interface. A standard is needed. AT&T has rolled out updates that knocked out all cell traffic nationwide including the first responder system. This cost god knows how much money to the nation. This wild west anything goes environment for software development has to end. Bugs cost the world a lot of money in just lost time, learning different GUIs costs money in lost time to train/learn each new one. I have spent hours trying to figure out things on my phone, or ANY device it seems, to fix some stupid issue that should never have occurred or should have been much easier to locate.

Software bugs and terrible GUIs are possibly one of the biggest problems of the modern world and NOTHING is being done and its getting Moors's law worse.

So yea Robert, I know the feeling. Ive got a Vanatoo computer speaker and it has 2 inexplicable issues. Its randomly will start level shifting. This will progress until its fully out of control over days. A power cycle fixes this. It will occur about every 2 months. It also randomly will get these weird pops/thumps. These start suddenly and then never go away or progress. Like 5-6 times per song. This requires a fact reset to clear the issue. I most likely have hours of my life I have spent trying to isolate and fix this issue. I gave up. It will NEVER be fixed. But I now have a fix.

Software bloat, which is at the core of this issue because more lines of code = more bugs,,,, lies a serious psychological issue.

Feature bloat: Psychology boffins find people tend to add elements to solve a problem rather than take things away

Duplo exercise provides vital insight into flawed human heuristic

www.theregister.com