Anyone Using A Lampizator Golden Gate (with volume control) Directly Into Your Power Amp?

[Highlander]

It would appear that I will be fortunate enough to purchase this dream DAC at an incredible price very soon from an original owner. I am sure there are still some owners here (who haven't moved on to a Pacific yet). I was just wondering about those who are using it via its volume control/preamp circuit directly to the power amp(s) and what your thoughts are on doing so. I've previously had some very mixed results, to out it kindly, experimenting with my previous system, and those of friends and others. The results we had were heavily favoring using a preamp and not connecting directly from DAC to amp. Even today, I was on the phone with Conrad Johnson (makers of my ART SA power amp), speaking to one of their top people, asking whether they suggested using the DAC to go direct to the amplifier, and he said they strongly recommend staying with a preamp in the mix, that their testing has always favored that in terms of sound quality. However, I have read more and more, of late, of people's success in going direct, and one of my friend found that also worked for him with his Lampizator Big 7, with volume control.

I'm very torn about this, as I currently own an absolutely amazing preamp which took my system to a new level that I just sit in wonder at. Giving it up to go direct would be painful and disappointing, but then there is the almost incontrovertible logic that a shorter, less complex path, should always result in better audio performance.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[bonzo75]

I have experimented with direct vs using an external preamp with the Big 7, Golden Gate, and Pacific. With various external preamps. I always preferred the external pre. You get more weight and body. You might lose a little bit of speed and neutrality. But if you get an external pre, get one that will optimise your Lampi. I have tried the Lampi with with low priced preamps as well as the high priced ones like AR Ref 10, AR Ref 6, Ypsilon, Nat Magnetostat, Dartzeel, the 80k Aries Cerat (there is also a much lower priced one), Analog Domain Integrated, Concert Fidelity, Dartzeel, Nagra, Siltech Saga, MSB Direct. The lower priced ones from Jadis JPL, KR Audio, Yamamoto, Thoress, Airtight passive, many others. All worked great, but the 242 tubes sounded best through the Analog Domain, Aries Cerat, and the Ypsilon. The Lampi 45s sounded best with the AR and the Nagra. If your Lampi sound is optimized for the 242s, that is when your system will sound the best imo, and not necessarily when you get the what you think might be a better preamp in a non-Lampi environment.

 

[Aries Cerat]

I have experimented with direct vs using an external preamp with the Big 7, Golden Gate, and Pacific. With various external preamps. I always preferred the external pre. You get more weight and body. You might lose a little bit of speed and neutrality. But if you get an external pre, get one that will optimise your Lampi. I have tried the Lampi with with low priced preamps as well as the high priced ones like AR Ref 10, AR Ref 6, Ypsilon, Nat Magnetostat, Dartzeel, the 80k Aries Cerat (there is also a much lower priced one), Analog Domain Integrated, Concert Fidelity, Dartzeel, Nagra, Siltech Saga, MSB Direct. The lower priced ones from Jadis JPL, KR Audio, Yamamoto, Thoress, Airtight passive, many others. All worked great, but the 242 tubes sounded best through the Analog Domain, Aries Cerat, and the Ypsilon. The Lampi 45s sounded best with the AR and the Nagra. If your Lampi sound is optimized for the 242s, that is when your system will sound the best imo, and not necessarily when you get the what you think might be a better preamp in a non-Lampi environment.

Hello Ked
That was the Impera Ref you heard with the 242s, 18k retail.

Cheers
Stavros

 

[bonzo75]

Hello Ked
That was the Impera Ref you heard with the 242s, 18k retail.

Cheers
Stavros

Stavros, the one that flyer had was 18 or 80? Maybe when he said "teen" I heard it as "ty"

 

[Aries Cerat]

Stavros, the one that flyer had was 18 or 80? Maybe when he said "teen" I heard it as "ty"

Hey Ked

He had the Ref model at the time,which is 18.000e .

Cheers
Stavros

 

[bonzo75]

Hey Ked

He had the Ref model at the time,which is 18.000e .

Cheers
Stavros

And the imperia II is?

 

[bazelio]

Preamps can't take systems to new levels; "no preamp" is always better than any preamp. (Assuming the source is capable of driving the amp, and the amp is reasonably efficient) But, what you may experience is that a particular coloration/alteration to the unadulterated sound of "no preamp" happens to be one that you like - e.g. "more weight and body". This isn't the preamp providing information in the recording that was somehow otherwise missed. It's the preamp adding its own flavor to the recording. Though, with that being said, the attenuator in many DACs might well be worse than the one provided by a good preamp and therefore a losing proposition overall. So "no preamp" doesn't necessarily equate to simply using the DAC's built-in attenuator. I was once able to test "no preamp" when I had an amp with rear mounted per-channel attenuation knobs which were provided for channel balance control. Normally, I'd leave them wide open when using a preamp for volume control. But with careful adjustment, I could also use them to compare phono direct to amp versus phono to preamp to amp. And ever since then, I've tried to achieve the "no preamp" sound; the removal of an entire active device and along with it the added noise, distortion, etc. Just be careful with DAC attenuators - consider analog vs digital (most are digital - which is terrible), consider what they add to the signal path, etc.

 

[Aries Cerat]

And the imperia II is?

The Impera II lineup starts with the Ref model (18,000e) which is the model Michel had when you visited.
Then is the Signature model (35.000e) which is the model Michel got recently after selling his own Ref.
Followed by the Limited Edition (82,000e).

 

[heihei]

Based on testing PAC with and without pre, I'd agree with Ked. That said, I've probably tested more pre-amps in my system than any other component, from the cheap (Linear Tube Audio) to the ridiculous (CH Precision L1 and Audionet Stern), and still haven't decided what the end-game is!

 

[Legolas]

Indeed. I have a hunch that pre-amplifiers and also DACs that have OPTs may drive the next stage better. Many DACs have weak gain stages and / or high output impedance. This can affect the ability to drive a power amplifier IMO. Just adding a resistor at the output of a DAC may not be such a good idea. Digital volume 'may' work in some cases, but the ones I have heard so far seem to loose something, mainly low level linearity.

 

[bonzo75]

Based on testing PAC with and without pre, I'd agree with Ked. That said, I've probably tested more pre-amps in my system than any other component, from the cheap (Linear Tube Audio) to the ridiculous (CH Precision L1 and Audionet Stern), and still haven't decided what the end-game is!

Your pre issue also comes as your downstream Berning quadrature needs to be carefully managed. In my opinion that rules out active valves

 

[bazelio]

Indeed. I have a hunch that pre-amplifiers and also DACs that have OPTs may drive the next stage better. Many DACs have weak gain stages and / or high output impedance. This can affect the ability to drive a power amplifier IMO. Just adding a resistor at the output of a DAC may not be such a good idea. Digital volume 'may' work in some cases, but the ones I have heard so far seem to loose something, mainly low level linearity.

Better off choosing a DAC with lowish output impedance, bypassing its volume control, and using a TVC or AVC before the amp. If you must choose a DAC with excessive OI, then probably buy in to that manufacturer's full ecosystem as they'll have designed it to all work together. I'm not a fan of that, personally. The inductive volume controls however are not susceptible to the same impedance matching gotchas of resistor ladder types. With the transformer or autoformer volume controls, you're putting their inductive reactance in parallel with the load impedance (typically 50k to 100k) and then it also doubles every octave. So if you have sufficient power transfer at 20 Hz, you're fine. My in room response definitely isn't flat to 20 Hz, so I really wouldn't care if the -3dB point of my inductive volume control was a bit higher (but it's not). And with a passive device like the well-reviewed Emia preamp, a device output impedance upwards of 1500ish is often OK - but there are other variables. So, YMMV and I've not a clue on Lampizator's specs. My DAC has an output impedance of 100 and my phono about 80. My amp's input impedance, as measured by Stereophile, is 220k. So essentially, the source devices really only see the inductive reactance of my autoformer as the amp's load is insignificantly light at the attenuation settings I use for normal listening (-25db or so). This is about 15k Ohms at 20 Hz and the source voltage swing is fine. I've been interested in demoing two particular phono stages but have noticed they have high OI - in the 2k to 2.5k range. These are probably going to be questionable even with my AVC and I'll have experiment with substituting in an active device. Ick.

 

[bonzo75]

Errr... No... Better off choosing a Lampi, and customising it as required. You can adjust all those things.

 

[bazelio]

How do you adjust all those things?

 

[bonzo75]

How do you adjust all those things?

One, the manufacturer can for you. Two, before sending to the manufacturer, try different tubes. The Lampi tubes work differently with different preamps, some just love some preamps and some don't. So try that as the first step, almost always that sorts it out. Ideally call friends with different preamps over and dumber find the most mind blowing combo of tube and pre for your system. Since you are an analog guy, if you have tried to optimize your cart, phono, pre, you will know. This is similar, just easier

 

[bonzo75]

That said...i haven't heard any dac that works well without a pre, except MSB. And my objective is to maximize sound, not go philosophically for an approach, so I took off my Lampi VC for external preamp

 

[microstrip]

It would appear that I will be fortunate enough to purchase this dream DAC at an incredible price very soon from an original owner. I am sure there are still some owners here (who haven't moved on to a Pacific yet). I was just wondering about those who are using it via its volume control/preamp circuit directly to the power amp(s) and what your thoughts are on doing so. I've previously had some very mixed results, to out it kindly, experimenting with my previous system, and those of friends and others. The results we had were heavily favoring using a preamp and not connecting directly from DAC to amp. Even today, I was on the phone with Conrad Johnson (makers of my ART SA power amp), speaking to one of their top people, asking whether they suggested using the DAC to go direct to the amplifier, and he said they strongly recommend staying with a preamp in the mix, that their testing has always favored that in terms of sound quality. However, I have read more and more, of late, of people's success in going direct, and one of my friend found that also worked for him with his Lampizator Big 7, with volume control.

I'm very torn about this, as I currently own an absolutely amazing preamp which took my system to a new level that I just sit in wonder at. Giving it up to go direct would be painful and disappointing, but then there is the almost incontrovertible logic that a shorter, less complex path, should always result in better audio performance.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

In my experience cj tube amplifiers sound much better and, I would say, need a cj preamplfier to show their best. Even if it is a low cost one! Many types of amplifiers sound perfect with preamplifiers of other brands, but cj seems critical in this aspect. It looks strange - cj amplifiers typically have gain enough and high-impedance, technically they would be perfect for direct connection of DACs, but reality shows differently.

However I have no experience with the tube DAC you are considering. What is the output topology of the GG? How is achieved the volume control? The tube buffer is located after it?

As always, IMHO, YMMV.

 

[bazelio]

That said...i haven't heard any dac that works well without a pre, except MSB. And my objective is to maximize sound, not go philosophically for an approach, so I took off my Lampi VC for external preamp

That simply means you prefer the coloration of certain preamps. Nothing wrong with it, but it is a personal preference. They're masking or changing characteristics of your source to a greater degree. Many DACs "work" just fine without preamps though. EAR, Bricasti, PS Audio, Schiit, MSB just to name a few. Heck, even TotalDac claims to be able to drive anything above 100ohm directly without distortion and has 40 Ohm OI and something like 3.3 Vrms out. A perfect candidate for no active preamp. Whether or not you prefer the more transparent direct sound out of these DACs is merely subjective. Regarding the "maximize sound" objective, there are plenty of us who have empirically found the elimination of active components in the chain to do exactly that. It's just that your "maximum" might be my local minimum or thereabouts. As far as philosophy, yes, it stands to reason that everything we need is already in the grooves, 1s and 0s, or magnetic tape particles and preamps can't add musical content.

 

[bonzo75]

Lampi drives extremely well. Elberoth has been using his for years that way. I don't. I like combining the whole synergy and find much higher benefits that way. I also don't rate those other dacs you listed except for Total dac or MSB. If you have theory, great.

You might as well tell an analog guy to use only phonos like Aesthetix and Burmester because they drive directly. Even Tang prefers to use the preamp with his EMT JPA 66

 

[microstrip]

That simply means you prefer the coloration of certain preamps. Nothing wrong with it, but it is a personal preference. (...)

Surely - the same way people using tube amplifiers prefer the coloration of tubes, solid state users prefer the coloration of solid state devices ... However probably people who like the sound of cj as intended by the designer will prefer the combined coloration of the preamplifier and amplifier.

Fortunately since long the high-end forgot the idea of the wire with gain and null tests... Surely some will disagree with my fortunately ... And I must say I prefer my Quad 606's to a few colored amplifiers!