All Ortofon cartridges have a 600-1000 hr stylus lifetime?

ack

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It was posted before by rockitman that he was told the A90 has a 600-1000 hr stylus lifetime... I am not sure how true this is... their FAQ seems to make this general statement about all their cartridges:

If normal attention has been paid on cleaning record as well as stylus as mentioned, we find that 600 hours up to 1000 hours is possible without degradation of performance. However, concerning PRO systems used for "scratching" and "back cuing", we have experienced stylus lifetime to be substantially less because of their unique application. As a consequence DJ`s will have to consider about 500 hours at the most.
Just feels too broad a statement to apply to their high end cartridges...
 

ack

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They also claim perfect VTA OOTB with the recommended tracking force... Hmmm...

Cartridges are constructed so that cantilever angle corresponds to the 20 deg. record cutting angle, when the cartridge is loaded with recommended tracking force and the cartridge base is parallel with the tonearm and this again is parallel to the record surface.
 

ack

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Peter

what would be the stylus lifetime of other cartridges. Isn't this unusally low

People claim average usage times of 2000-2500hrs. Yes it WOULD be unusually low, but somehow I don't believe it
 

ack

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I'll leave it to rockitman to respond accurately, but if I remember correctly we were all up in arms that they couldn't/wouldn't... and thus we would play our cartridges scarcely
 

mep

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I think Van den Hull still rebuilds cactus needles so I would ask him.
 

DaveyF

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The more one thinks about the statement of cartridge life, the more one has to ponder the reasons behind a statement from a manufacturer like Ortofon regarding same.
IMO, the life of a cartridge must be subject to numerous variables, including but not limited to:
general handling, climate, set-up correctness, condition of record(s), stylus force, speed of the table, shape of the diamond, cleaning regimen of the stylus ( remember in the old days how LINN suggested using a small piece of sandpaper:eek:), and many other variables.

The other question that I wonder about, is what truly defines "worn out".....:confused::confused:
At what exact time is the cartridge not worn vs. "worn out":confused::confused:
 

Bruce B

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Now who the hell is going to DJ "scratch" with an A90 or Anna?? That's funny!
 

bblue

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They also claim perfect VTA OOTB with the recommended tracking force... Hmmm...

Cartridges are constructed so that cantilever angle corresponds to the 20 deg. record cutting angle, when the cartridge is loaded with recommended tracking force and the cartridge base is parallel with the tonearm and this again is parallel to the record surface

A90's and Anna's are spec'd at 23 degrees VTA (whose standard is that??). I have two A90's and neither of them are correct at the recommended VTF of 2.3g. They're at closer to 20 degrees if you measure the angle of the cantilever. But at that point, the stylus SRA is +2-3 degrees (stylus tilted tip toward the front instead of slightly inward) and you need to raise the arm pivot or significantly decrease the VTF to come close to the correct SRA. Unfortunately, mine (at least) don't seem to track well at lower VTF.

--Bill
 

ack

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A90's and Anna's are spec'd at 23 degrees VTA (whose standard is that??). I have two A90's and neither of them are correct at the recommended VTF of 2.3g. They're at closer to 20 degrees if you measure the angle of the cantilever. But at that point, the stylus SRA is +2-3 degrees (stylus tilted tip toward the front instead of slightly inward) and you need to raise the arm pivot or significantly decrease the VTF to come close to the correct SRA. Unfortunately, mine (at least) don't seem to track well at lower VTF.

--Bill

So what is correct SRA in your mind? I would have thought +2 to +3 degrees is exactly what you'd want.
 

bblue

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So what is correct SRA in your mind? I would have thought +2 to +3 degrees is exactly what you'd want.
It would be -1 to -2 degrees that you want (stylus tip pointed rearward). That is the range of typical cutter head inward tilt, which is done to assist in managing the 'thread' from the cut into the vacuum on the lathe.

--Bill
 

karma

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HI All,
I have been tracking stylus wear using a stylus microscope for 30 years. I have run two different hi fi repair shops for a total of 13 years. I would examine every stylus that came into my shops under a Shure SEK-2 purpose designed microscope.This amounts to thousands of styli. Of course, I have examined my own styli as well.

I have found that around 1000 hours is the usual life time for a stylus. It varies a little but not much. Remember a diamond is a diamond. And a groove is a groove. There are not many variables here, VTF being the primary one. But VTF does not seem to make much of a difference mostly because most cartridges are at their best within a fairly narrow range of VTF's.

I have also found that most owners are wildly optimistic about the number of hours on their stylus.

Do not kid yourselves. Don't make the mistake of over using your stylus. It WILL tear up your records.

Wear can be detected by ear. It first shows up as mistracking in the inner grooves on the left channel on highly modulated passages where you never heard distortion before. As the wear progresses distortion will become more common until you can no longer ignore it. This may be too late for your records.

Since many other things can cause mistracking, a microscope is invaluable for detecting that the problem is actually stylus wear and not a set up problem. This and you can actually see the degree of wear. Do not mistake this as a simple magnifier. It's a serious instrument that you can observe stylus wear facets at 200X.

For those that wish the best for your records you should have a stylus microscope. Unfortunately, today they are rare and hard to find. The most common one was the Shure SEK-2 but good luck finding one. I have one but it's not for sale.

Because of the availability issue, I designed a substitute using a laboratory microscope that anybody can build. I posted this project on Audio Karma. Here is a link to the build article:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225960

Check it out. You may need to build one. It's easy, sort of. I can't be without a good stylus microscope.

Sparky
 

ack

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It would be -1 to -2 degrees that you want (stylus tip pointed rearward). That is the range of typical cutter head inward tilt, which is done to assist in managing the 'thread' from the cut into the vacuum on the lathe.

--Bill
I think we are saying the same thing, except that to me and others this type of tilt is really a positive angle. Basically starting with the stylus dead vertical to the record, raising the arm results in a positive SRA offset; I think this convention is used because, as you raise the arm, it results in a positive VTA offset (adjustment) from original, hence it makes sense to refer to the equivalent SRA change also as being positive.
 

mep

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Sparky-Thanks for the thought provoking post on stylus wear. The thing is for me is that I have no experience looking at styluses under a microscope and wouldn’t know what the hell I was looking for unless it is wear/deformation to the facets that were obvious. Is it as simple/obvious as that or is there more to the story?
 

karma

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HI mep,
Quite a few folks I have spoken to have expressed the same misgiving as you. I won't say you are wrong but it is not as big of a deal as you think. Initially, you probably won't even recognize what you are seeing since most have never seen a worn stylus at such high magnification. It looks different than you think. With a little practice you will see the wear facets and understand the facets are the only thing that is important in the view. Don't expect to see a whole stylus. The magnification is too high and the depth of field is too shallow.

Just focus on the stylus tip. That's were the facets are and is the area of interest. With a little experience, you will become adept. You would start with an old cartridge that you have replaced because of wear. The wear facets will be there. It's guaranteed. Practice while you learn how to manipulate the cartridge under the scope and examine the wear facets carefully. Offer to examine friends cartridges. Get as many examples as you can. Take your microscope to club meetings and demonstrate. An important thing is having a clean stylus to examine. You can't believe the crap I have seen on customers styli. Of course, your personal styli will be clean but clean it again anyway.

You would not be looking for deformation of the facets at all. A new stylus has no facets and are very boring to observe. It's the facets themselves that are the wear indicators. The larger the facet, the more wear that is present. At 1000 hours on a good tone arm, the facets will be very small and you probably won't hear any distortion yet. But the facets will grow and become destructive. By the time you notice distortion, the facets will have become quite obvious.

Generally, I think it is a good practice to change the stylus as soon as the facets appear. Don't wait.

Eventually, you will see many interesting things. For example, you will see that a cartridge was used on a pivoted tone arm that had misadjusted anti-skate. This will be indicated by non-symmetrical wear facets. It is a truth that I have never seen a stylus that was used on a pivoted arm that had symmetrical facets. What does that say? Of course, with your air bearing arm the facets will be symmetrical because there is no anti-skating force. This comparison is a powerful testament to the inaccuracies of the pivoted geometry.

Learning about stylus wear is not hard. Becoming expert takes a bit more time.

I'm including a link to an Audio Karma essay I wrote concerning my personal history with one particular Shure SEK-2 Stylus Microscope for your recreational reading. Enjoy

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=411139&highlight=sparky

Sparky
 
Last edited:

bblue

Well-Known Member
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San Diego, CA
I think we are saying the same thing, except that to me and others this type of tilt is really a positive angle. Basically starting with the stylus dead vertical to the record, raising the arm results in a positive SRA offset; I think this convention is used because, as you raise the arm, it results in a positive VTA offset (adjustment) from original, hence it makes sense to refer to the equivalent SRA change also as being positive.
I used to look at it the same way. However, the Feickert Adust + Pro software refers to the inward rake as minus values, and a couple of white paper-type discussions of VTA/SRA that I've read do also, so I changed my view of it.

I'm not positive which is really correct.

--Bill
 

bblue

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2011
360
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388
San Diego, CA
...
Just focus on the stylus tip. That's were the facets are and is the area of interest. With a little experience, you will become adept. You would start with an old cartridge that you have replaced because of wear. The wear facets will be there. It's guaranteed. Practice while you learn how to manipulate the cartridge under the scope and examine the wear facets carefully. Offer to examine friends cartridges. Get as many examples as you can. Take your microscope to club meetings and demonstrate. An important thing is having a clean stylus to examine. You can't believe the crap I have seen on customers styli. Of course, your personal styli will be clean but clean it again anyway.

You would not be looking for deformation of the facets at all. A new stylus has no facets and are very boring to observe. It's the facets themselves that are the wear indicators. The larger the facet, the more wear that is present. At 1000 hours on a good tone arm, the facets will be very small and you probably won't hear any distortion yet. But the facets will grow and become destructive. By the time you notice distortion, the facets will have become quite obvious.
Sparky,

I have an over-the-turntable trinocular microscope on an articulating arm for examination of record grooves (smoothing/cleaning out some forms of noise) and stylus examination. I believe it goes out to 200 power. But try as I might, looking down at the stylus tip at full magnification I was never to actually discern the cut that rides in the groove. After reading your posts about it I realize why. I use only a circular LED light ring mounted right at the end of the scope as a light source, but what I should have is a pair of halogens one on each side. I ordered a set of the ones you mentioned and will figure a good way to apply them consistently in the right location. I use a small, heavy components vice to hold the cartridge or stylus assembly. It can be a bit tedious because there are no fine adjustments like in an x-y platform, but it is doable.

Thanks for the additional information!

--Bill
 

ack

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I used to look at it the same way. However, the Feickert Adust + Pro software refers to the inward rake as minus values, and a couple of white paper-type discussions of VTA/SRA that I've read do a, so I changed my view of it.

I'm not positive which is really correct.

--Bill

So tell us a bit more about feickert... How do you set sra with it
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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A new stylus has no facets and are very boring to observe

What about the a90 with that radical stylus profile ortofon claims?
 

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