Airforce III Premium, Vertere RG1 or Brinkmann Balance

[nickif]

Having a headache of choosing my first turntable. Now I’ve narrowed down to the captioned 3, which one do you think I should be getting and why? Any input will be appreciated.


I mainly listen to classical and jazz, got 2 carts on hand: Miyajima Madake and Ikeda Kai, planning to get simplicity 2 arm, probably a Ikeda 407 to go with the Kai.

Have auditioned RG1 and AF3P at dealer’s showroom with completely different setup though. RG1 sounded great but not sure if it is because of the reference arm, reference motor and platform as well as the much more expensive system. I won’t be able afford the reference arm for a while so even if I get the RG1 I’ll probably mount a simplicity II or similar price point on it. AF3P sounded authoritative but less lively than vertere, again not sure how much the rest of the system contributed.

Thanks in advance for your time!

Michael

 

[bonzo75]

I have heard the Vertere compared to the Doehmann and on its own. Of those I prefer the brinkmann.

A classical enthusiast Montesquieu has the Ikeda and the madake on a 124. I like his set up but more with the Ikeda cart.

I never liked the madake in any of the set ups i heard it in

 

[Tango]

Did you hear vertier and af3p in the same system?

 

[nickif]

I have heard the Vertere compared to the Doehmann and on its own. Of those I prefer the brinkmann.

A classical enthusiast Montesquieu has the Ikeda and the madake on a 124. I like his set up but more with the Ikeda cart.

I never liked the madake in any of the set ups i heard it in

Thanks for the insight Bonzo, actually I like Madake quite much. Heard several times at different system, all with good result. Why do you not like it?

 

[nickif]

Did you hear vertier and af3p in the same system?

No, different system.

AF3P with Granham arm + Benz cartridge with full ARC driving Wilson Sasha.

Vertere with reference arm + Madake, system is Robert Koda phono/pre+ angstrom power amps driving Cessaro horns.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks for the insight Bonzo, actually I like Madake quite much. Heard several times at different system, all with good result. Why do you not like it?

I call it muddyke. It has nice tone and timbre for a small instrument but many carts can do that with more drive and energy and separation than it.

I like the miya zero mono cart though

 

[bonzo75]

What's the rest of your system btw?

 

[nickif]

What's the rest of your system btw?

JMF transport +Dac, Robert Koda K15ex+ K70, Cessaro Wagner + Cessaro subs

 

[bonzo75]

My suggestion is try SETs like Lamm and add a Vyger in, or add a linear tracker and a pivot on a brinkmann. Or get a Vyger for the LT and another pivoted table for pivot arms.

 

[nickif]

My suggestion is try SETs like Lamm and add a Vyger in, or add a linear tracker and a pivot on a brinkmann. Or get a Vyger for the LT and another pivoted table for pivot arms.

Thanks for the advice, can you elaborate more about the comparison between vertere and Doehmann? And why do you prefer Brinkmann? Is it the bass deeper and tighter? And overall presentation more neutral?

 

[gian60]

I have AF3P and has a very good bass and mid bass,could be not a good match with Wilson for his full midbass
Then Koda and Angstrom is much better than ARC,so need to listen in same system to understand better

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks for the advice, can you elaborate more about the comparison between vertere and Doehmann? And why do you prefer Brinkmann? Is it the bass deeper and tighter? And overall presentation more neutral?

This is very difficult to explain. I have written loads on my blog and fremer's description is spot on word to word.

However for me sometimes unless I have listened myself words don't make sense. After listening with the person and knowing common components it is much easier. Best is if you can listen to it well set up then it will be easier to relate to the words

 

[Tango]

No, different system.

AF3P with Granham arm + Benz cartridge with full ARC driving Wilson Sasha.

Vertere with reference arm + Madake, system is Robert Koda phono/pre+ angstrom power amps driving Cessaro horns.

This explains why you heard af3p less lively than vertere.
Techdas tts are very dynamic and lively.

 

[nickif]

I have AF3P and has a very good bass and mid bass,could be not a good match with Wilson for his full midbass
Then Koda and Angstrom is much better than ARC,so need to listen in same system to understand better

Thanks Gian, I’ve read your AF3P post and know your love with this TT. Which TT do you listen to most? You are right the two system are not on the same level therefore it was not a fair comparison.

 

[nickif]

This explains why you heard af3p less lively than vertere.
Techdas tts are very dynamic and lively.

Yes it makes sense. I’ve heard AF3 in a friend’s system with Goldmund amps and speakers, very good bass and mids, however sometimes it just feels too controlled, like a Japanese clerk with suit, whereas Vertere are more dynamic and “free” sounding. However as you said, it might be more dependent on the system rather than the table...

 

[nickif]

This is very difficult to explain. I have written loads on my blog and fremer's description is spot on word to word.

However for me sometimes unless I have listened myself words don't make sense. After listening with the person and knowing common components it is much easier. Best is if you can listen to it well set up then it will be easier to relate to the words

True, I understand. Sometimes words are just too plain compared to what we hear/feel. Need to find a local audiophile with a well set-up BB then...

 

[ashandger]

In case of interest, I think there was great review of Vertere RG1 turntable + SG1 arm in HiFi+ a while....you can probably find it online. I would also suggest you read Roy Gregory's review of Grand Prix Audio's Parabolica turntable and Roy is also a big fan of Simplicity arm. You could probably contact Roy via The Audio Beat for his thoughts on Parabolica + Simplicity 2. Hope this helps and best of luck with your search.

 

[montesquieu]

I call it muddyke. It has nice tone and timbre for a small instrument but many carts can do that with more drive and energy and separation than it.

I like the miya zero mono cart though

Disagree totally with you there Kedar needless to say. The Ikeda is the one I sold (very detailed, not as musical as the Madake in my opinion). As you know my diet is mainly renaissance and baroque smaller scale instrumental, vocal/choral and keyboard, along with Lieder, classical chamber music and piano, and it's absolutely masterful at all of these. The vocal coherence is second to none. It's pretty good at jazz as well - its timing is magnificent as its ability with timbre.

It has fewer fireworks than the Ikeda which admittedly is more show-offy in a flash, hifi way especially with big orchestral. I used to mainly put it on when hifi people ccame round. My fellow musician friends pretty much exclusively prefer the Madake.

 

[CKKeung]

The Madake, particularly the snakewood version is excellent for vocals and jazz.
However another cartridge is needed when playing large scale orchestral music.

 

[amadeus]

Having a headache of choosing my first turntable. Now I’ve narrowed down to the captioned 3, which one do you think I should be getting and why? Any input will be appreciated.


I mainly listen to classical and jazz, got 2 carts on hand: Miyajima Madake and Ikeda Kai, planning to get simplicity 2 arm, probably a Ikeda 407 to go with the Kai.

Have auditioned RG1 and AF3P at dealer’s showroom with completely different setup though. RG1 sounded great but not sure if it is because of the reference arm, reference motor and platform as well as the much more expensive system. I won’t be able afford the reference arm for a while so even if I get the RG1 I’ll probably mount a simplicity II or similar price point on it. AF3P sounded authoritative but less lively than vertere, again not sure how much the rest of the system contributed.

Thanks in advance for your time!

Michael

You have a great system Robert Koda K15+K70+Cessaro!!!

From your list i would take AF3 Premium you can't go wrong whit it if you couple it whit a Graham Elite Arm or a Thales Arm you can forget what some has to say...

Vertere Table is very good but in my opinion to have the complete Vertere Table whit Arm PS... is not a very good price performance.

Brinkmann Balance whit the Tube Powersuply is a great table but stay away from Tonearm and Cartridge(EMT Modified) from Brinkmann.