ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

Ron Resnick · Mar 12, 2018

caesar said:
Interesting comment about jazz and horns, Ron. I always thought that people that gravitated toward horns were folks into music with big dynamic swings, such as orchestral. (And occasional Led Zepplin!) Can you please say more?

Also, for your amps, I know it's BIG MONEY, but have you given a thought to Atma-sphere MA-3s? Amazing transparency to music and liquidity on all Atma-sphere models, and that model will drive anything.

I have no idea what “people” think. I am not pronouncing a rule of general applicability. I am giving you only my personal opinion.

Ralph is an OTL tube amplifier genius and he is very responsive and helpful and friendly. I am concerned that the Atma-Sphere amplifiers, while champions of crystalline transparency, will strike my ears as being on the lean-sounding side.

dctom · Mar 12, 2018

microstrip said:
Thanks - I really missed this review. Just went through it - wow! M. Fremer really felt in love!

Yeah that's why I thought it might pique Mike's interest, HaHa!

BMCG · Mar 12, 2018

All - you might want to check John Atkinson’s measurements on the Ypsilon and his rather emphatic statement that he could NOT recommend the amplifier

An interesting contrast of measurements and euphonics(euphoria?)

LL21 · Mar 12, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
For my musical preferences and sonic preferences I am afraid I have to disagree on all points.

Nothing is going to change my musical preferences, and you can simply feel free to disagree with the equipment I wish to use to effectuate my musical preferences most realistically for me.

A full range electrostatic does not work for me at all because I find it lacking in body from the lower midrange on down, and because I need oomph and dynamic impact from the upper bass and below.

I totally disagree that horns are music genre agnostic. If I listened primarily to jazz there is no doubt I would have horns. Listening to vocals on horns I have some transparency issue (which remains a bit of a mystery and hard to diagnose).

i am with you on this one, Ron. While my musical tastes are broad...and i therefor wish to listen to various different kinds of music...the only the thing the system allowed me to do was actually 'enjoy' listening to large scale orchestral or organ (very tough in smaller systems) as much as to intimate choral (like right now as i type), or deep house electronic, Hans Zimmer, jazz, blues, quartets, Latin, African jazz, a capella, Clapton, Dead, etc.

But it never changed the kinds of music i wanted to buy or own...

It DID allow me to go out and buy more of the orchestral i had always WANTED to buy anyway knowing i could enjoy listening to it on the system with less constraints, greater freedom of scale, etc...but my musical mix today by percentage of what i enjoy owning is probably not much different today than it was 20 years ago.

harleyguy · Mar 12, 2018

Steve Williams said:
This is where we disagree Mike. Your Dart nay be different but I can assure you that paired with the ML3 it is not better than the LL1. Sorry Mike. Speculation is OK but the ML3 LP1 and LL1 were designed to function together. It’s his Signature series. Best I can tell you is your Dart is different but it isn’t better with the ML3. You’re wrong on this one Mike. Same way your preamp was designed with your amp in mind so also the LL1/ML3

agree

microstrip · Mar 12, 2018

BMCG said:
All - you might want to check John Atkinson’s measurements on the Ypsilon and his rather emphatic statement that he could NOT recommend the amplifier

An interesting contrast of measurements and euphonics(euphoria?)

It is funny that these measurements are very similar but even much better than those of the $350k Wavac where JA just concluded " So, that's that for the Wavac SH-833. I can't explain why Michael found its sound so seductive; all I can do is point to the measurable problems or audible idiosyncrasies that must be listened through to hear what it does right." https://www.stereophile.com/content/wavac-sh-833-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#qkLM1j9f0bYGDlY4.99

Probably he considers that the Hyperion's are too cheap to be allowed to measure differently than usual or simply that the enthusiasm of M. Fremer needed a technical antidote!

Mike Lavigne · Mar 12, 2018

Steve Williams said:
This is where we disagree Mike. Your Dart may be different but I can assure you that paired with the ML3 it is not better than the LL1. Sorry Mike. Speculation is OK but the ML3 LP1 and LL1 were designed to function together. It’s his Signature series. Best I can tell you is your Dart is different but it isn’t better with the ML3. You’re wrong on this one Mike. Same way your preamp was designed with your amp in mind so also the LL1/ML3

all I said is that we don't know the answer to that question (whether the LL1.1 is a better (or equal but different) match with the ML3 than the dart pre), and that any answer is possible. in one sentence you say i'm wrong, and in the next sentence you say at best it's different but not better. the difference between my dart-amp/pre and yours is my amp and preamp have a proprietary interface, your amp and pre amp do not.

I respect how your feel.

note that I have heard the LL1.1 + the ML3 in at least 3 separate systems, and......obviously heard the ML3 + dart pre in my system. you've not heard the ML3 + dart pre combo. it's very good. I love it even.

and note that in Fremer's Ypsilon Hyperion review, he notes what a great combo the Hyperion is with the Ypsilon PST-100 MkII preamp in passive mode, then in the next breath says "equally impressive (match with the Hyperion) was the transparency of the active darTZeel". so the dart pre being an equally great match with an 'uber' amp of a different brand is a credible thing. then Fremer also adds that if he was buying new, he would prefer to have the same brand amp and preamp (which makes sense unless you are using one pre and 2 amps like I am).

who knows how this would play out, just that any result is possible......no matter our feelings on the guesses we each make.

Ron Resnick · Mar 12, 2018

microstrip said:
After that I would consider that " Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse Linestage - Callisto is an all-tube linestage suitable for the most demanding audio systems and listeners. Fully balanced circuitry from input to output, including internal balancing of single-ended inputs, results in common mode signal rejection and cleaner sound. " and would consider only balanced input amplifiers or adding an unbalancing high quality transformer, such as the famous Intercitor (Flex Connect) . http://smcaudio.com/products/flex-connect/. Otherwise you will be sending away two thirds of your Eclipse.

The designer/manufacturer of the AM Audio 833S Ultima wrote to me that he will add an unbalancing transformer inside the amplifiers.

Do you have any recommendation for the highest sound quality unbalancing transformer I could perhaps specify for him?

Folsom · Mar 12, 2018

Ron, you'd probably be happy with Sowter or Lundahl transformers.

rockitman · Mar 12, 2018

Looking forward to more feedback from Mike that is the subject of this thread...Dart vs Lamm vs Vac sonic experiences.

analyzer · Mar 13, 2018

microstrip said:
ddk said:

Although I have only limited experience with MM3's - show and shop demo's - I fully agree with you. EA's and Wilsons's are night and day sonically and technically.
BTW, although we have confirmed complete measured data on the Wilson's efficiency and impedance, we do not have public data on the efficiency and impedance of the Evolution Acoustic speakers. Big speakers are not easy to measure.

Click to expand...

Also me I'm interested in take a look to the measurement of impedence graphs and real sensitivity of EA top models (and consider that I'm an happy owner of a MM3).
I suspect that the most part of speakers' manufacturers often declare a value that is an "high-peak" of sensitivity based on Frequency response in their models; reading the Stereophile tests in speakers most brands are a little bit "optimistic" in specifications.

We must consider that MM3 and especially MM7 are an unusual design in crossover, that is a "constant voltage" configuration.
That said I'm looking at the Mike's experiment with Lamms.. very very interesting, I'm surprised of the results.
my two cents
Marco

Mike Lavigne · Mar 13, 2018

rockitman said:
Looking forward to more feedback from Mike that is the subject of this thread...Dart vs Lamm vs Vac sonic experiences.

been out of town since early Sunday morning, back Thursday. I will 're-engage' the VAC's then and see where it takes me.

Tango · Mar 13, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
been out of town since early Sunday morning, back Thursday. I will 're-engage' the VAC's then and see where it takes me.

Wish you a successful trip. So successful you award yourself with new super toys and we all can enjoy reading your experiences.

Tang

microstrip · Mar 13, 2018

Folsom said:
Ron, you'd probably be happy with Sowter or Lundahl transformers.

I will second your recommendation, but accepting they sound different. I have tried a few of them, as well as Jensen and the FlexConnect (Interocitor). Adding a balancing transformer can need a few passive components for compensation that should be tuned for the circuit and each transformer. Even the several strapping options of a Lundhall change its sound.

It is not an easy choice IMHO. As soon as you look in their catalogues the doubts arise, as they have many models!

Steve Williams · Mar 13, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
all I said is that we don't know the answer to that question (whether the LL1.1 is a better (or equal but different) match with the ML3 than the dart pre), and that any answer is possible. in one sentence you say i'm wrong, and in the next sentence you say at best it's different but not better. the difference between my dart-amp/pre and yours is my amp and preamp have a proprietary interface, your amp and pre amp do not.

I respect how your feel.

note that I have heard the LL1.1 + the ML3 in at least 3 separate systems, and......obviously heard the ML3 + dart pre in my system. you've not heard the ML3 + dart pre combo. it's very good. I love it even.

and note that in Fremer's Ypsilon Hyperion review, he notes what a great combo the Hyperion is with the Ypsilon PST-100 MkII preamp in passive mode, then in the next breath says "equally impressive (match with the Hyperion) was the transparency of the active darTZeel". so the dart pre being an equally great match with an 'uber' amp of a different brand is a credible thing. then Fremer also adds that if he was buying new, he would prefer to have the same brand amp and preamp (which makes sense unless you are using one pre and 2 amps like I am).

who knows how this would play out, just that any result is possible......no matter our feelings on the guesses we each make.

Mike but this is what you said

might the big Lamm LL1.1 be better into the ML3's? we don't really know that......yet. it would not surprise me if it was not better, maybe slightly different.

Mike you have been making statements throughout this thread that really are confusing as Marty pointed out to you several days ago. His questions and comments have gone unanswered by you. I remain fixed in my belief Mike that your Dart is NOT better than the Lamm LL1. You are talking about Vlad's defining work much the same as Dave Wilson's recent WAMM which is a culmination of his life experience. Think of it Mike as someone coming in and saying "yours is just OK whereas mine is better as I know better than you the designer"

Why don't you stop talking about the confusion in the bass response and if you were really interested try the pair together Mike and do a fair comparison by using an LL1 rather than casually suggesting that your Dart pre might be better than the LL1.

Reading this thread mike and trying to get a feel for your impressions to understand what you are hearing, I believe that I can sum it upon one word...."headroom" with the Dart, nothing more.

I've read here in this thread that you as well as Jazdoc have commented about the bass on the ML3 as being the best you've heard. There are too many comments here in this thread that I find totally confusing and sometimes misleading and now to read a supposition on your part that the Dart pre with the ML3 will possibly be better than the LL1 is IMO nothing more than conjecture on your part. Vlad worked for 5 years on his Signature series before bringing to to market and along comes a comment from you that you suspect your combination will give a better audio presentation than what Vlad spent 5 years of his life developing.I totally disagree with your premiss Mike. There are too many confusing comments in this thread for me to understand especially after jazdoc who you invited over to listen made comments that he was hearing things that he has never heard before.

You obviously have a strong bias for the Dart (but heck I have the same for the LL1/ML3 combo) and your direction is clearly guided by the bias. There was never any doubt for me as to where your mind would take you but when you now begin to inflict conjecture into the equation the your Dart preamp is perhaps better than the LL1 to me serves no purpose in this thread unless and until you put the Lamm LL1 preamp into the equation with the ML3 your comments are nothing more than speculation

sorry

caesar · Mar 13, 2018

Hi Steve,

First let me say that you are TRUE MENSCH and belong in the Hall of Fame in this hobby.

I sense a lot frustration in your last few posts. Everyone has their tastes and and their own approach to this hobby. This hobby is very subjective - Better and Different are subjective. I mix and match a lot, so I understand where Mike is coming from...

To resolve this, any chance you can throw your Lamm preamp into your car, drive up the coast and hook it up in Mike's system?

Weather is getting better in Seattle by the day. It's the only way to resolve this in the immediate future...

Steve Williams · Mar 13, 2018

caesar said:
Hi Steve,

First let me say that you are TRUE MENSCH and belong in the Hall of Fame in this hobby.

I sense a lot frustration in your last few posts. Everyone has their tastes and and their own approach to this hobby. This hobby is very subjective - Better and Different are subjective. I mix and match a lot, so I understand where Mike is coming from...

To resolve this, any chance you can throw your Lamm preamp into your car, drive up the coast and hook it up in Mike's system? Weather is getting better in Seattle by the day. It's the only way to resolve this in the immediate future...

I understand where he is coming from as well however there is a lot of unfounded innuendo that is creeping into this thread. I could care less which preamp Mike uses and I am glad that he is involve with his dart in the combination. Perhaps the comments should have been left at that rather than adding a dangling participle with the comment that the dart might be a better combination.

To me the biggest difference IMHO that Mike is enamored with is the headroom with his Dart amps but to compare the ML3 amp properly surely a simple a/b comparison with the LL1/ML3 vs Dart pre/ML3 would provide a quick answer. And lets be sure to invite several listeners who have no skin in the game and can give an impartial response such as that given by jazdoc. Short of this to make a comment that it might be better is not only misleading but reflects bias

Oh and BTW I have no desire to be lifting my preamp and sending it to Seattle.

Other unanswered questions to me is the statement by ddk that the ceramic drivers are more difficult to drive than the drivers on my X2 and perhaps, just perhaps there is credence to this. Might not this also be a reason that the ML3 runs out od gas.

I just feel that there is more to this than meets the eye and the comments that I have read by jazdoc are for me most meaningful in this thread as he has no skin in the game. He stated that he heard things that he has never heard before with the dart combo in Mike's system.

Other unanswered questions are in reference to the comments made by Mike and jazdoc that it was the best bass they ever heard. This plus Fremer's review leaves questons and thoughts in my mind

rockitman · Mar 13, 2018

Steve..with all due respect, this is not about the preamp... It’s about the amps. If the Lamms aren’t up to the task of driving Mikes speakers the way he likes, the Lamm preamp won’t make any difference. That is the point of this thread as I see it. Too much defensiveness going on around here if you ask me.

marty · Mar 13, 2018

So let’s talk about “the preamp” but from a different angle.

It seems to me that a simplification and broad generalization thus far (please allow for the requisite hyperbole) is that the 458 offers what one expects from a great Bordeaux. It’s all about power and grace. The ML3’s however, appear to excel at what great Burgundy bring to the table; it’s all about layers and finesse.

Now nobody loves a “single variable” experiment more than I do. And that’s exactly what Mike has done. This is no small accomplishment as it can only be done with considerable resources in a great lab environment.

But one has to wonder. What if…one considered the preamp as a second variable? I wonder what the sound might be if we took any of the world’s great tube preamps (of which the Lamm LL1 Sig is surely one) and ran it with the 458s? Might we wind up with something akin to a great northern Rhone, which many feel has the best traits of both Bordeaux and Burgundy? Substitute the tube preamp of your choice. I'd sure be interested in that experiment if only for historical reasons. I’ve done this over many years with VTL Siegfireds, ARC 610s, and a variety of SS and tube preamps and have concluded that a tube preamp and SS amp is the preferred combination for me although specific searches continue. (Then again, I love Guigal’s single vineyard La La’s).

Mike Lavigne · Mar 13, 2018

Steve Williams said:
Mike but this is what you said

Mike you have been making statements throughout this thread that really are confusing as Marty pointed out to you several days ago. His questions and comments have gone unanswered by you. I remain fixed in my belief Mike that your Dart is NOT better than the Lamm LL1. You are talking about Vlad's defining work much the same as Dave Wilson's recent WAMM which is a culmination of his life experience. Think of it Mike as someone coming in and saying "yours is just OK whereas mine is better as I know better than you the designer"

Why don't you stop talking about the confusion in the bass response and if you were really interested try the pair together Mike and do a fair comparison by using an LL1 rather than casually suggesting that your Dart pre might be better than the LL1.

Reading this thread mike and trying to get a feel for your impressions to understand what you are hearing, I believe that I can sum it upon one word...."headroom" with the Dart, nothing more.

I've read here in this thread that you as well as Jazdoc have commented about the bass on the ML3 as being the best you've heard. There are too many comments here in this thread that I find totally confusing and sometimes misleading and now to read a supposition on your part that the Dart pre with the ML3 will possibly be better than the LL1 is IMO nothing more than conjecture on your part. Vlad worked for 5 years on his Signature series before bringing to to market and along comes a comment from you that you suspect your combination will give a better audio presentation than what Vlad spent 5 years of his life developing.I totally disagree with your premiss Mike. There are too many confusing comments in this thread for me to understand especially after jazdoc who you invited over to listen made comments that he was hearing things that he has never heard before.

You obviously have a strong bias for the Dart (but heck I have the same for the LL1/ML3 combo) and your direction is clearly guided by the bias. There was never any doubt for me as to where your mind would take you but when you now begin to inflict conjecture into the equation the your Dart preamp is perhaps better than the LL1 to me serves no purpose in this thread unless and until you put the Lamm LL1 preamp into the equation with the ML3 your comments are nothing more than speculation

sorry

sorry too that you see this as so personal.....and my direction somehow a threat in some way.

you are a good guy and my friend. better I withdraw from this exchange.....as avoiding getting defensive appears impossible.

ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

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