Equi~Tech vs Torus

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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One might be worried if after an unfortunate house fire the fire marshal determines an electrical device without a permit was installed:( The electrician I was using rightfully wouldn't install the device without a local county electrical permit.

Hi Len - which certification are the Torus missing that caused an issue with the local permitting authority?
 

Speedskater

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Sep 30, 2010
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Hi Len - which certification are the Torus missing that caused an issue with the local permitting authority?

It was an 'in-wall' unit, so the NEC code requires that it be tested by a 'Safety Agency' like UL, ETL, CSA. The 'AHJ' Authority Having Jurisdiction can be very demanding about dotting i's and crossing t's.
 

LenWhite

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Feb 11, 2011
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The Torus unit didn't have a UL certification. The county would have approved the Torus if it had had either a UL or national Canadian certification. Although it did have some type of Canadian certification, it wasn't one the local permitting authority would accept.
 

microstrip

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microstrip

I indeed am pleased. Correct me if I am wrong but you don't seem to be entirely convinced by the Equi=Tech approach. My preferences
regeneration aka double conversion UPS
torus Isolation transformer
equitech

Later when i am home, hate to type on the iPad "keyboard" :(

Frantz,

I accept that a properly implemented isolation transformer can improve the quality of the mains. It can provide noise and harmonics filtering as well as some short time transient energy, and in balanced form minimize mains leakage currents . However, IMHO most of the "balanced" power tales are not real, and people mix the real improvements with noise rejection with characteristics that do not exist. I also have a negative bias towards the balanced power as I find it completely inappropriate for domestic use of audio amateurs for safety reasons - my love for good sound does not overcome electrical safety regulations, particularly as I live in a 230V country. I have no experience with it, but can easily accept that for large systems with many pieces of equipment, long cables and complicated wiring, such as professional studios, the Equi-Tech can be a good thing.

My priority list is similar to yours. And my first days with the PSAudio P10 are confirming it - I will comment on it after the "wow effect" ceases, but it seems I have bought a new (better sounding) CD player!
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Frantz,

I accept that a properly implemented isolation transformer can improve the quality of the mains. It can provide noise and harmonics filtering as well as some short time transient energy, and in balanced form minimize mains leakage currents . However, IMHO most of the "balanced" power tales are not real, and people mix the real improvements with noise rejection with characteristics that do not exist. I also have a negative bias towards the balanced power as I find it completely inappropriate for domestic use of audio amateurs for safety reasons - my love for good sound does not overcome electrical safety regulations, particularly as I live in a 230V country. I have no experience with it, but can easily accept that for large systems with many pieces of equipment, long cables and complicated wiring, such as professional studios, the Equi-Tech can be a good thing.

My priority list is similar to yours. And my first days with the PSAudio P10 are confirming it - I will comment on it after the "wow effect" ceases, but it seems I have bought a new (better sounding) CD player!

microstrip
I am getting old :) ... I mostly agree with your point of view ... :( ... Since I am only getting old but not entirely old yet:p I do however believe that there has some real performance with the Equi=Tech. IME the Torus approach (Serious Isolation Transformer + Balanced if desired) cover most of the bases.
It must be said that Equi=Tech is better known in the audiophile world than Torus at least IMO but performance-wise everything a Torus system is likely to perform better than an Equi=Tech ..
The Ultimate remains IMO regeneration. Re-build the AC waveform and be done, it can be as clean as you want.

How much power can your PS Audio provide?
 

microstrip

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(...) How much power can your PS Audio provide?

The european models have more power than the US ones : Continuous Power 1800VA , Maximum Peak Load 2000VA, Dynamic Power Delivery 0.5 second> 5000VA

Power enough for my current system - although not enough for two giant Atma-sphere MA2's!
 

doshiaudio

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2013
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Frantz,

I accept that a properly implemented isolation transformer can improve the quality of the mains. It can provide noise and harmonics filtering as well as some short time transient energy, and in balanced form minimize mains leakage currents . However, IMHO most of the "balanced" power tales are not real, and people mix the real improvements with noise rejection with characteristics that do not exist. I also have a negative bias towards the balanced power as I find it completely inappropriate for domestic use of audio amateurs for safety reasons - my love for good sound does not overcome electrical safety regulations, particularly as I live in a 230V country. I have no experience with it, but can easily accept that for large systems with many pieces of equipment, long cables and complicated wiring, such as professional studios, the Equi-Tech can be a good thing.

My priority list is similar to yours. And my first days with the PSAudio P10 are confirming it - I will comment on it after the "wow effect" ceases, but it seems I have bought a new (better sounding) CD player!

maybe I'm missing something but can you please elaborate on the negative bias vis-a-vis the safety reasons ?
 

Speedskater

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In the US type AC power system, components are designed for a 120V Hot wire and a Neutral wire. Only the Hot wire has a power switch, so when you turn the component off the Neutral wire is still connected. With a balanced system that Neutral wire is now connected to a Hot system wire. So your units are never truly off from a safety viewpoint.
 

microstrip

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maybe I'm missing something but can you please elaborate on the negative bias vis-a-vis the safety reasons ?

Effective electrical protection in mains systems is obtained using general residual-current circuit breakers also known as Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI). These units, localized in your electrical board, switch the mains off if there is an unbalance between the currents carried by the neutral and the phase wires, assuming that any difference is due to a current going to the earth through an improper way, such as an human body, to the earth that is connected to neutral at some point. If you distribute balanced mains in your listening room you must have special safety measures and requirements that are not known to people who usually service and maintain domestic electrical installations. BTW, I am located in Europe - perhaps US codes are different.
 

Onepoint5

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Sep 23, 2011
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If you have an isolation transformer or a UPS, regenerator with floating secondary or output, not tied to earth, the most effective protection is a GFCI/RCD to the leakage current standard for your country, some are 30mA, some are less 6mA. Many are hard wired for panels, some are portable types. These devices are not expensive and are built in ratings from 6A to about 120A. As mentioned before, they trip on a difference in the current flow of both conductors being more than the tripping level of 30mA or 6mA. BTW, they are essentially a switch, with a core balance device that sits around the conductors, not through them, so for audio use, they don't compound sound quality issues.

Since both lines are above earth, both conductors must be broken when the GFCI trips, so use a 2 pole device, not a 1P+. Amplifiers, pre-amplifiers that have on off mains switches are usually double pole, due to dunces of this world mixing up live and neutrals on the input and getting things horribly wrong.
Equipment that has no integral on off switch has no issue. Any wall outlets that incorporate a switch must be double pole.

Any lamp that's connected to this system that has a switch, must also be double pole variety, and here is the problem.
It's very likely to plug in an appliance like a lamp into an isolated system, and switch only one pole, sure the lamp will go off, but the other side is still live. If there is a fault in the lamp, the GFCI will trip it. It's the inadvertent plugging in of an appliance that's not wired for an isolated system to cause regulation breaches.

A balanced system like the Equitech, BPT, Furman P-2400 IT, some Torus units need to have protection the same as the Isolation transformer above, that is have a rated GFCI on the output. I use a GFCI on the output of an Equitech Model Q, and it holds well at our regulation 30mA, no nuisance trips.

If your house only has GFCI in the bathroom, laundry consider doing the whole house. Many countries mandate the use of GFCI equipment for wall outlets and lighting circuits for protection of people and property in case of fires. If you go through a transformer, you need to maintain the same level of protection on the "other" side.
 
Last edited:

JonFo

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...
A balanced system like the Equitech, BPT, Furman P-2400 IT, some Torus units need to have protection the same as the Isolation transformer above, that is have a rated GFCI on the output. I use a GFCI on the output of an Equitech Model Q, and it holds well at our regulation 30mA, no nuisance trips. ...

Very helpful advice, Thanks.

Any recommended units for the output of a 5KVA Equi+Tech?

In my application, I star out three branches via some computer controlled DPST relays. So max load on any one branch is 20A.
 

Onepoint5

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Sep 23, 2011
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Very helpful advice, Thanks.

Any recommended units for the output of a 5KVA Equi+Tech?

In my application, I star out three branches via some computer controlled DPST relays. So max load on any one branch is 20A.

5kVA at 120V delivers 42A, so you can use a 50A breaker with a C type trip curve (5x), Siemens 5SU1 as example. To protect your sub circuit cables, you most likely need a set of three 20A 2P breakers with the same C characteristic after the breaker.
The C characteristic allows a longer time for a peak current to pass, such as a transformer in a big amp energising. You can use D class types (non GFCI though) which allow even longer peaks, but they don't discriminate with the Class C, it's a bit of a fiddle. In this case you need to look at the 20A load current and how long it will last, and use discrimination curves for the larger breaker to hold that value. It can get pretty messy.

Alternatively, an easier approach is to use three 20A C Type GFCI direct from the Equitech for each of your final circuits, that's the least painful and it will work. You would have to wire from the Equitech to the 20A breaker in 50A cables, cause the breaker inside the Equitech is rated to the output of the device and will protect the cables.

I do recall a test button on the back of some power conditioners for audio, this usually means that there is a GFCI already built in, and testing this will drop the power to your loads, to make sure that the GFCI is working. Please consult the documentation.

If you aren't a professional electrician, run these ideas over with them, they have all the tools for the heavy wire anyway. Just make sure they don't loop the earth from one outlet to the other, on the back of the Equitech is a ground point, run an earth cable from this point to your outlet feeders directly in a star pattern, so in your case three earth cables.

C and D types are to VDE/IEC rules. Nema has adopted some of these, perhaps given them other names.
 

zztop7

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Dec 12, 2012
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GFCIs in the circuits $$$

GFCIs in the circuits: A GFCI uses a transformer on the HOT leg & on the Neutral leg to start the process of sensing a problem & tripping.

>>> A deep technical-audio person would need to test the circuit -with & without GFCI to see if the transformer Negated some of the power supply [& power cord] improvements.<<<

Of course, there is also the protective switch on the Hot leg. So after $10K on power supply & power cords with the special wire / shielding / etc. etc. - well throw in a $15. GFCI.

Here is the business opportunity: High End Audio Quality GFCIs / should be good for $500. a pop.

Best to all,
zz
 

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
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The transformer inside a GFCI breaker or receptacle is a very small (way less than 1 cubic inch) 'current transformer'. A 'current' transformer is a very different component than a 'power' transformer.

While the only legal operating test of a GFCI is the test button on the GFCI, having a test button on a power conditioner is a reasonable way of checking to see if your system is connected the way you think that it is.

Note that NEC code requires a GFCI on all balanced circuits.
 

microstrip

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GFCIs in the circuits: A GFCI uses a transformer on the HOT leg & on the Neutral leg to start the process of sensing a problem & tripping. (...)

It is an interesting point - when I choose high quality GFCI's (30mA) for our house I was looking to the electrical characteristics of the elements that sense the current in series with the mains and could not find them - in the end the choice was rather dominated by the reliability and the opinions of experts on the quality of the brands and models.
 

Onepoint5

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2011
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Here's a drawing of a GFCI/RCD from Siemens, they have a lot of great tech info to look at and readily available.

The large coils, W1 and W2 detect any imbalances across a system in this case shown for a three phase system. For 120V/230V system, ignore the other two lines with terminal 3 & 4 and 5 & 6.
W1 W2 are current transformers, they pass the conductors around a central core much like a ferrite, but without the frequency drama of ferrites.
W1 looks for sine waves, W2 for us is important, it measure pulses, cause the waveform from amplifiers, SMPS, anything that has a transformer and diodes will draw current like this.
If there is an imbalance, a voltage is created across the secondary windings which is sensed and a mechanical device switches the output off. The test function injects a current into the path to simulate a real fault, so the whole device can be tested.

You can see two boxes A & E which contain electronics, yes to do all the sensing and to activate the trip mechanism. Now these electronics have to shut up their noise, otherwise, they will cause a trip by themselves, hardly the point of the device in the first place. I would imagine if these detection systems fail, the GFCI would trip all the time and never close properly. A good GFCI will only look at 50/60Hz and not everything else.

But this does lend itself to produce an "audio grade device", there are devices that have the electronics in a separate box, and generally these are not cheap, as they have selectable delay times, and sensitivity controls far more suited to larger distribution systems and not for direct people contact protection.

ELCB.jpg

GFCI can nuisance trip when you apply power to a device that has an EMC filter on a TN supply (not on a balanced supply). This is due to the internal capacitor of the RFI filter charging asymmetrically across the power line and ground. This imbalance is seen by the GFCI and it trips. If you immediately reclose the GFCI, the capacitor is already charged and will draw no assymetrical current any more and the GFCI will hold closed.
 

Btselect

New Member
Jul 4, 2012
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Correct me if I am wrong on this, because you are splitting the 120 volts are you essentially only working with 60 volts at any one time.
 

Onepoint5

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Sep 23, 2011
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Correct me if I am wrong on this, because you are splitting the 120 volts are you essentially only working with 60 volts at any one time.

If you measure to earth and ground, yes, 60V is the maximum you measure. One 60V is 'more' negative than the other by 180 electrical degrees, so they don't in fact cancel. The equipment though, always uses the two outer 'legs' at 120V. Here's a picture of the equivalent circuit using batteries:

balanced power battery equivalent.jpg

The picture can be used as snapshot of an AC waveform.
The outer side of the batteries are still 3V (120V) while one 1.5V (-60V) is -ve (by 180 degrees) to earth (0V in the drawing) and the other 60V is referenced at a higher potential than earth point. The potentials are all there, it's a matter of where the reference is made of + or - with respect to 0V (earth) being a real mathematical zero.

The + and - nomenclature is often confusing, since you think the two should cancel out altogether, but if you think of it as above and below zero, that may help.
 

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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I see that this thread has not been active in two years but it is spot-on for my current question.

Due to waterproofing repairs to the retaining wall holding up my house much of the front of my house where the power comes in from the pole, and my listening room, are a mess. I am thinking this is a good opportunity to consider installing an Equi-Tech 10WQ.

What is the latest learning in this area?

Mike L, are you still happy with your 10WQ?

Are there any new competitors to Equi-Tech besides Torus?

Is there any advantage to using several Furman P-2400 ITs in the listening room, so that there is a shorter run of power lines after the balanced power output and before the power goes into components, rather than the distributed Equi-Tech system located at the main electrical panel?
 

Bruce B

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I"ve been totally satisfied with my Equi=tech wall cabinet. It's been in service about 8yr. now. There is a slight hum from the cabinet, but it's off in another room, well away from listening areas. I've got JPS Labs in-wall cable on dedicated runs into the rooms, splitting left and right side into Oyaide R1 and Furutech receptacles.
The electrical is dead quiet. I have a couple of 'dirty' lines in my room for lights, etc, and you can certainly tell when you use one of those.
 

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