Oh no, MF is not a fan of 12" arms!

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
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Peter,
If you read the SME web pages on the two arms you will notice that this sentenced is suppressed in the SME V-12 features

"Internal constrained layer damps minute residual vibration leaving the tone-arm acoustically inert. Fine machined cartridge platform, enamel free to avoid interface resonance. "




IMHO this can suggest that there are considerable differences between the two arms other than length and consequently tracking angle. Theoretically we could even consider that the SME V-12 is a "less perfect" tonearm considering SME objectives enumerated in the SME original features. Surely perhaps your preferences are not the same as those of SME V designers ...

Interesting points, Francisco. I have no way of knowing the [sonic?] preferences of the SME V designers, so I can not comment on that one. Should we assume that their preferences changed between the designs of the two arms beyond the desire to reduce tracking error by increasing the length of the arm? It is surely possible that their preferences did not change. Perhaps founder ARA was the final arbiter of the sound of these arms. I think he was involved in the design of the 12" 312S arm just before he died and I understand that he wanted to develop the 30/12 table to support a 12" version of the V arm. The 20/12 was developed for the 312S arm, or visa versa.

The V-12 was released after ARA died, and perhaps the omission of that line in the list of features was an accident by those who put together the web pages. Do you know if the armtube's internal damping and cartridge platform (headshell?) are in fact different between the two arms? I would find it surprising to learn that they omitted these features in their flagship arm if they thought it made the arm sound better.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Actually Marc Gomez was kind enough to bring an SAT to Myles so he could hear it on his own turntable. i have received emails from around the world from people who bought an SAT after reading my review. Not a single one was a complaint. I did write that I've not heard the Vertere or the Axiom but one gentleman who owns all three said the SAT was the best he's heard.

I realize people do act upon what I write so I'm very careful about what gets put in print. It's not like posting "stuff" on forums. For instance I never wrote that "9" arms are inherently superior", though that's what the original poster claimed.

Words matter.

+1 ...words matter.
_____

Extra:
https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...unces-new-pick-arm-lineup#mPoL7dUqA73fFDFo.01
https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/analog-playback/tonearms/22386-sat-tonearm
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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your assertion that 12" arms have "higher resolution" is not confirmed by any facts I've ever seen.

I think your comment is fair. I've not dug deep enough for any sort of objective confirmation/conclusion on arm length relative to performance. I can only draw on observations.

what I should have written is that "my observation is that the 12" arms I have used appear to have higher resolution than shorter arms I have used. and 12" arms seem to be less tolerant of any compromises; based, again, only on my observations."
 

Pb Blimp

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
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Is not the answer to this question a function of the execution? At some point doesn't execution reduce the detrimental resonance effects of more length to the point the inherent alignment benefits of greater length prevail?
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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I think you can read from Myles about his experience with the SAT arm in his system on his website.

Duh I now recall reading it.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Interesting points, Francisco. I have no way of knowing the [sonic?] preferences of the SME V designers, so I can not comment on that one. Should we assume that their preferences changed between the designs of the two arms beyond the desire to reduce tracking error by increasing the length of the arm? It is surely possible that their preferences did not change. Perhaps founder ARA was the final arbiter of the sound of these arms. I think he was involved in the design of the 12" 312S arm just before he died and I understand that he wanted to develop the 30/12 table to support a 12" version of the V arm. The 20/12 was developed for the 312S arm, or visa versa.

The V-12 was released after ARA died, and perhaps the omission of that line in the list of features was an accident by those who put together the web pages. Do you know if the armtube's internal damping and cartridge platform (headshell?) are in fact different between the two arms? I would find it surprising to learn that they omitted these features in their flagship arm if they thought it made the arm sound better.

Peter,

I am not a tonearm expert, but IMHO when a designer creates a tonearm he perfects it to a specified length and all the choices - materials, shape, are tuned to this dimension. This to say that when comparing two similar tonearms of different lengths I feel we are not comparing the length but the designer strategies and how they match the envisaged length. It is easy to admit that Marc Gomez 9" should sound much better than the 12" version - if our preferences are similar to his ones!

As far as I remember the main idea behind the SME V was creating a tonearm that approached master tape performance tonal equilibrium, damping any resonances that could affect it, moving away from the mainstream tonearms coming from the UK, that had a lovely and livelier sound, but colored - my Zeta and Syrinx PU3 were great and enjoyable tonearms, at a time my music preferences were rather different.

I have owned a SME V/SME30/2 for a few years, and basically because I also owned the Forsell with the Air bearing flywheel and no disposition to own two turntables I sold it. Although the Forsell has a more immediate sound, perhaps with more detail and more beautiful, that I really like, there was something "correct" and indescribable in the SME combo that remembers me of my Studer A80 playing Tapeproject tapes.

To be honest, if I tomorrow I could get my old SME V/SME30/2 9" system for the price I sold it I would buy it back immediately! And as in this hobby sometimes our heart is stronger that our head, I do not feel a similar attraction for the perhaps better sounding SME 12" combo that a good friend owns ... Yes, vinyl is an embarrassing different great world ...

Just 2 cents from my analog micro cosmos!
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
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La Jolla, Calif USA
Actually Marc Gomez was kind enough to bring an SAT to Myles so he could hear it on his own turntable. i have received emails from around the world from people who bought an SAT after reading my review. Not a single one was a complaint. I did write that I've not heard the Vertere or the Axiom but one gentleman who owns all three said the SAT was the best he's heard.

I realize people do act upon what I write so I'm very careful about what gets put in print. It's not like posting "stuff" on forums. For instance I never wrote that "9" arms are inherently superior", though that's what the original poster claimed.

Words matter.

Hmmm, if you reread my OP, I don’t think there is anywhere where I stipulated that you used the word..”inherently”.
Michael, I happen to agree with your thinking, the 9” arm has potentially fewer issues than the 12” arm. IME, it generally sounds better too.
It certainly is very easy to be quoted out of context on the forums, and yes..words matter!...:rolleyes:
 
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TrackingAngle

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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Yawn. Good morning sunshine
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Michael, I often wake up, look in the mirror, and say "and just who are you, good looking?"
 

TrackingAngle

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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Looking good is more important than knowing who you are..
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Looking good is more important than knowing who you are..

Mike

I really enjoyed meeting you yesterday as well as talking about life

I remain sincere about our talks re an October visit for the reasons we discussed
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Michael, at least you'll know you're good looking. Is being good looking AND being an audiophile mutually exclusive?
 

TrackingAngle

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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Mike

I really enjoyed meeting you yesterday as well as talking about life

I remain sincere about our talks re an October visit for the reasons we discussed

Of course!
Michael, at least you'll know you're good looking. Is being good looking AND being an audiophile mutually exclusive?

No! Both are possible
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Michael, I know this is OT here (maybe deserves it's own thread?), but do you have any l/t perspective on what about the original GPA Monaco 1.0 in yr 2007 Stereophile review you felt was lacking, as you've gone on to praise other DDs like the Bardo, culminating in what appears to be genuine admiration for the SAT tt?
 

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