The Future of Turntables ...

turntables in the future?

NorthStar said:

-----Mike, where do you see the Turntables in the future, like forty years from now?
...As collector's items or as state-of-the-art musical devices into the reproduction of whatever vinyls of yesterday, today, and tomorrow brings to the table?

And 40 years from now, where the CD will be? Dead and replaced by hi res audio streaming, or hardly alive and still floating on the ocean's surface? ...Or at the bottom, on its floor?

Last; is there a future for physical/musical/visual mediums? ...Forty years from now?

THX :b

P.S. Those above few simple questions are also free for Myles, Marty, Bill, or any other member here to answer, of course.

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this is continued from the 'Eye Candy' thread here;

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?40-Eye-Candy/page21

i think that like any question relating to audio, it starts with the media/software and the music. right now you have baby boomers loving vinyl and the Golden Age of Classical, Jazz, and Rock/Pop of the 50's thru the 70's. and that means vinyl and analog recordings. many younger listeners continue to embrace that music and the vinyl listening experience and there is a demand for vinyl versions of current pop music.

how this music sounds best is the underpinning of everything else.

if you drove me to the wall, and threatened me with bodily harm, and asked me to predict musical tastes and what would people might want to listen to in 40 years, i think that this 'Golden Age' music will continue to hold a high place in music lover's heart's. and if that is the case, then vinyl will still be relevant in 40 years. there are billions of Lps out there and 40 years will not diminish it's usability in my opinion. i have 50 and 60 year old vinyl now that sounds as good as the newest pressings.

so assuming that the media/format's popularity continues to drive hardware improvement, how might turntables be different?

i see the tonearm as the place where the most significant progress will be made; and in some ways where the most progress has already been made in the last few years. the cutting edge tonearms of today can still get better, but it will be more that mid-market tonearms might get much closer to what top level tonearms of the today can do over time. once a wider group of people hear what is possible in tonearm performance, then they will have that reference to build toward. it's simply a matter of getting the top technologies applied to the tonearm challenges. i would guess that the unipivot---gimbled---linear tracking question might become clearer as to which one (i already know which one i ilke) has the most to give. maybe another approach might be found that is superior that has not yet been thought of. again; once a wider audience hears what is now possible, more ideas will be brought to bear on the challenge.

the turntable itself is already close to it's full potential. the best of today are close to right on. isolation systems might be where they can find the most improvements.

cartridges could get a little better but arms are more significant.

phono stages might be improved if lower noise gain stages are found....but those are already quite mature.

so in total i see (1) the music recorded in analog and on vinyl will be relevant in 40 years (2) cartridges, turntables and phono stages will not be significantly different/ better, and (3) tonearm performance will continue to improve, top level tonearm performance will be more common, and there could be radical break-thru's in tonearm design.

i'll leave questions about the other media to others, it does not interest me.

The trick will be to deliver the performance that is currently possible or will be in the future, at a lower price point. We now take for granted that a state of the art turntable is what, 20 grand U.S., an arm 5-10 grand and the cartridge, another 5-10 grand, before you get to the phono stage to deliver the goods- add, conservatively 3-5 grand for that (and all of these prices can be higher, particularly on turntables and phono stages). Not bitching (well I am sorta, if I could get the performance on vinyl for less, I'd be happy), but for the medium to enjoy any wider acceptance than it currently has- other than as a niche product for high end and as a 'cool thing for kids' (right now), I think the price of high quality performance has to come down.

moderator; either attach this thread to Northstar's thread with essentially the same title or the reverse. we don't need 2 identicle threads. thanks.

i did link that previous thread to this thread both ways.

There will be a problem with turntables, and audio in general, in the future. It won't be technological, however. It will be one of logistics. As more and more brick and mortar stores close, and as transportation costs increase, delivering product to the end user will be a major concern for some manufacturers. For some, it is already. In-home demos are the future, and they are extremely expensive for those with difficult to ship product.

Technology, on the other hand, will improve significantly. It won't be technology that makes the unit sound better, but it will allow for much more user flexibility, mechanical stability and ease of updating.

Imagine a turntable that can track the hours played of all your cartridges, tonearms and records. Imagine a turntable that has all adjustments available from your listening chair via your i-Phone. Imagine a color touch screen that tells you all you would ever want to know about the mechanics of your turntable, including real time waveforms of its motor performance. Imagine a turntable built with materials that would never require a break-in period or any maintenance. Imagine a turntable with electronic bios upgrades that the user can perform. Imagine predictive correction measures of turntable performance that act in subtle ways before an error happens. This is the future, and it is being developed right now.

Mosin said:

There will be a problem with turntables, and audio in general, in the future. It won't be technological, however. It will be one of logistics. As more and more brick and mortar stores close, and as transportation costs increase, delivering product to the end user will be a major concern for some manufacturers. For some, it is already. In-home demos are the future, and they are extremely expensive for those with difficult to ship product.

Technology, on the other hand, will improve significantly. It won't be technology that makes the unit sound better, but it will allow for much more user flexibility, mechanical stability and ease of updating.

Imagine a turntable that can track the hours played of all your cartridges, tonearms and records. Imagine a turntable that has all adjustments available from your listening chair via your i-Phone. Imagine a color touch screen that tells you all you would ever want to know about the mechanics of your turntable, including real time waveforms of its motor performance. Imagine a turntable built with materials that would never require a break-in period or any maintenance. Imagine a turntable with electronic bios upgrades that the user can perform. Imagine predictive correction measures of turntable performance that act in subtle ways before an error happens. This is the future, and it is being developed right now.

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I have been imagining remote controlled VTA adjustment for some time- just don't tether it to an iPhone

How about a halfway house? Keep the tone arm, cartridge and phono input stage, with all those tweakable goodies, but place the stylus in a small cup-shaped transducer that is vibrated in the correct manner for stereo reproduction.

Mike Lavigne said:

moderator; either attach this thread to Northstar's thread with essentially the same title or the reverse. we don't need 2 identicle threads. thanks.

i did link that previous thread to this thread both ways.

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done

My hope, not prediction, is that in 40 years we figure out what it is about LP that people like and simulate that in software . I am pretty confident it can be done. Like any other physical device, we can measure and mimic what it does using signal processing.

amirm said:

My hope, not prediction, is that in 40 years we figure out what it is about LP that people like and simulate that in software . I am pretty confident it can be done. Like any other physical device, we can measure and mimic what it does using signal processing.

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Without understanding what makes it sound the way we do, we can simply record the output (of a particular LP and particular turntable setup on a particular day) digitally. Do you think that a digital recording done this way is already 'transparent'?

amirm said:

My hope, not prediction, is that in 40 years we figure out what it is about LP that people like and simulate that in software . I am pretty confident it can be done. Like any other physical device, we can measure and mimic what it does using signal processing.

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It's almost being done in Pure Vinyl now. They even have the GUI of a TT

Bruce B said:

It's almost being done in Pure Vinyl now. They even have the GUI of a TT

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right.....the Orgasmatron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasmatron

and 'sorta vinyl/rumour of vinyl/vinyl flavor' will be about as real....

amirm said:

My hope, not prediction, is that in 40 years we figure out what it is about LP that people like and simulate that in software . I am pretty confident it can be done. Like any other physical device, we can measure and mimic what it does using signal processing.

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I'm not so sure. There have been SS guitar amps on the market for years that supposedly can emulate the sound of different tube guitar amps and none of them come close. So all that measuring and mimicking didn't go so well. I think it's pretty simple what people like about LPs with regards to their sound, we like the way it sounds better than we like the way that digital sounds.

mep said:

I'm not so sure. There have been SS guitar amps on the market for years that supposedly can emulate the sound of different tube guitar amps and none of them come close. So all that measuring and mimicking didn't go so well. I think it's pretty simple what people like about LPs with regards to their sound, we like the way it sounds better than we like the way that digital sounds.

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They have software plugins now that will give you random ticks/pops and surface noise!

amirm said:

My hope, not prediction, is that in 40 years we figure out what it is about LP that people like and simulate that in software . I am pretty confident it can be done. Like any other physical device, we can measure and mimic what it does using signal processing.

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Amir,

Although I am pretty confident it can be done, I doubt that it will be done. As usual market rules. If there is a market for a product that pays for the cost of development and some profit, someone will do it. I do not see a market large enough for high quality LP emulation to pay for it and unless there is a wealthy sponsor paying for it, all some people will do it miming the worst defects and limitations of the LP, not its intrinsic high quality at its best.