DCS Vivaldi

Parsons

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Anyone tried Roon 1.8 yet with your dCS setup? My NAS drive via my upsampler is clearly better. More dimensional, more relaxed, more enjoyable.
Meaning you're running Roon from your NAS and you can hear improvements over the previous version?
 

jfrech

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Meaning you're running Roon from your NAS and you can hear improvements over the previous version?
Yes (same configuration with NAS and dCS UPS, just updated Roon from 1.7xx to 1.8).

I just went the Roon community page. Quite a discussion on those that can here changes, those that can't and those that had a deterioration. Officially they are saying it should be better with 1.8.

Screen Shot 2021-02-12 at 11.36.23 AM.png

Here is the link to the Roon page:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-8-sound-quality-change/141309/131
 

Parsons

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Yes (same configuration with NAS and dCS UPS, just updated Roon from 1.7xx to 1.8).

I just went the Roon community page. Quite a discussion on those that can here changes, those that can't and those that had a deterioration. Officially they are saying it should be better with 1.8.

View attachment 74910

Here is the link to the Roon page:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-8-sound-quality-change/141309/131

That's awesome--I hadn't (yet) read anything that I thought implied they made changes in the playback chain. Glad you're getting improvements there.

I don't know what your DCS stack is, but I'm impressed with how well my DCS Rossini Dac/clock handles all inputs (even Airplay and Bluetooth). However, I am still hearing a pretty significant improvement with my Antipodes CX/EX combo in line with my Rossini stack vs. a Roon Rock NUC that is located upstairs (I'm building it for another house, but testing it at home on my main system at the moment). The remote NUC sounds great, but gives up some in terms of black background and micro-dynamics, most noticeably. Tonally there is a slight drop in realism with piano strikes and drum strikes. That was on 1.7 and while i have upgraded my CX/EX to 1.8 and did NOT think i heard SQ changes, I will do a more thorough listening with the remote NUC and see what I can hear, if anything, after 1.8...that remote setup should approximate closely what you're doing on your NAS I would expect.
 

drunkenspyder

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Officially they are saying it should be better with 1.8.

I don't think that is entirely accurate. Officially the Roon team is saying there shouldn't be any change in SQ, unless one is using DSP [where improvement is expected], or one is using USB, where changes in memory management and processes might be helpful. Based on what they have identified as differences between 1.7 and 1.8, there is no reason to expect SQ changes in network playback. [My playback is from a Nucleus+ over a fiber-optic isolated network. I have perceived no SQ differences on either my headphone systems [MSB Select 2 DAC] or my speaker system [Vivaldi stack]. YMMV, but if it does, you should ask yourself "why."
 
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mribob

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I switched from Nucleus + to Innuos Statement, with Roon endpoint, and dedicated Uptone etheregen switch, made a nice improvement in playback from files on NAS to Vivaldi DAC, no UPS, as well as Qboz. Installed 1.8 the other day, not sure I am noticing much in way of sonic improvement, trying to get used to new interface.
Have not tried adding a run of fiber and another switch.
 

drunkenspyder

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Installed 1.8 the other day, not sure I am noticing much in way of sonic improvement, trying to get used to new interface.

I am not loving or hating the new interface. For me, installation was a breeze. There are some bad design elements in my view [mixed fonts and lots of wasted space], and some missing features [album icons and numbering in playlists on phones], but it works.
 

still-one

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It does seem to sound a bit better but if there is a difference it surely isn't significant. No matter since it all sounds great anyhow,
 

Parsons

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I switched from Nucleus + to Innuos Statement, with Roon endpoint, and dedicated Uptone etheregen switch, made a nice improvement in playback from files on NAS to Vivaldi DAC, no UPS, as well as Qboz. Installed 1.8 the other day, not sure I am noticing much in way of sonic improvement, trying to get used to new interface.
Have not tried adding a run of fiber and another switch.
I think you might be pleasantly surprised...especially if it's clocked and with good linear power...but then the $ really add up. You might see much of the improvement with something more modest just from the fiber...cheaper to find out.
 

drunkenspyder

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I think you might be pleasantly surprised...especially if it's clocked and with good linear power...but then the $ really add up. You might see much of the improvement with something more modest just from the fiber...cheaper to find out.
Depending on where his EtherREGEN is located in the chain, running fiber may be a waste of time and money.
 
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Parsons

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I don't disagree, but it's worth experimenting with. I run fiber to my EtherRegen from the SOTM switch, both externally clocked, and it seemed to be a small improvement over ethernet (and a heck of a lot cheaper than the expensive ethernet cables I like). I know some others preferred ethernet (again, sometimes very expensive ones), and of course there are folks that liked the EtherRegen reversed. I should say it was "at least as good" and it was definitely better having the EtherRegen in the chain vs. not having it, so I stayed with the fiber.
 

drunkenspyder

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I don't disagree, but it's worth experimenting with. I run fiber to my EtherRegen from the SOTM switch, both externally clocked, and it seemed to be a small improvement over ethernet (and a heck of a lot cheaper than the expensive ethernet cables I like). I know some others preferred ethernet (again, sometimes very expensive ones), and of course there are folks that liked the EtherRegen reversed.
I love fiber’s economy. But if running fiber in front of an ER makes a difference, something else is wrong. Expensive Ethernet cables that sometimes don’t meet spec are some of the sillier parts of our hobby, and as for reversing the ER, well, there is no end to audiophoolish paranoia. Just my $.02. YMMV.
 

microstrip

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Depending on where his EtherREGEN is located in the chain, running fiber may be a waste of time and money.
Is the EtherREGEN optically coupled?
 

Parsons

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I love fiber’s economy. But if running fiber in front of an ER makes a difference, something else is wrong. Expensive Ethernet cables that sometimes don’t meet spec are some of the sillier parts of our hobby, and as for reversing the ER, well, there is no end to audiophoolish paranoia. Just my $.02. YMMV.
Perhaps. There's a very long thread somewhere on this forum detailing a lot of different folks' experiences "stacking" switches and what they felt were the best combos for their particular servers/renderers/DACs, including the use of fiber between parts of the stack, and externally clocking the switches themselves. I experienced improvements myself that I recreated by removing and re-adding the devices, switching the orders of things, etc. Its of course ok if you feel that's a waste or impossible. Its obviously not worth my trying to recap all of that here as that thread is still out there with good reading for whomever might want to. I agree that the fiber should not make a difference, but I can't explain why it appears to make differences to myself and a lot of others, in some cases. I'm not paranoid by it, don't worry. Perhaps I'm a phool.

What I do genuinely appreciate about this forum is that there are, to me, a lot of people that actually buy, use, listen to, and in some cases get rid of stuff that works or doesn't work, and without fandom or a lot of emotion either way. Many other forums are a lot more speculation or theory as to why something can't make a difference, with few(er) folks who actually own the devices being suggested and really listening for differences in their systems.
 
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drunkenspyder

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Perhaps. There's a very long thread somewhere on this forum detailing a lot of different folks' experiences "stacking" switches and what they felt were the best combos for their particular servers/renderers/DACs, including the use of fiber between parts of the stack, and externally clocking the switches themselves. I experienced improvements myself that I recreated by removing and re-adding the devices, switching the orders of things, etc. Its of course ok if you feel that's a waste or impossible. Its obviously not worth my trying to recap all of that here as that thread is still out there with good reading for whomever might want to. I agree that the fiber should not make a difference, but I can't explain why it appears to make differences to myself and a lot of others, in some cases. I'm not paranoid by it, don't worry. Perhaps I'm a phool.

What I do genuinely appreciate about this forum is that there are, to me, a lot of people that actually buy, use, listen to, and in some cases get rid of stuff that works or doesn't work, and without fandom or a lot of emotion either way. Many other forums are a lot more speculation or theory as to why something can't make a difference, with few(er) folks who actually own the devices being suggested and really listening for differences in their systems.
As I said, YMMV. I believe analog cables can make a huge difference. I have tried more than I care to admit. I believe in quality power and power cables. I believe in digital cables that meet spec. I know DACs make a difference, and I can hear the difference between my Vivaldi and MSB DACs, both of which I love. I use fiber to ensure that my otherwise well-tuned network doesn’t introduce problems to my music playback. I also use an EtherREGEN and GigaFoil where fiber is not an option. There are reasonable explanations for why each of those things could make a difference. I was amazed when the addition of the Vivaldi Clock and then my reference clocks was noticed by both me and my wife (unprompted). But “audiophile switches,” clocking switches (I tried connecting locking the ER), and stacking switches all have zero theoretical justification. There’s plenty of “I don’t know why, but I hear it,” which unfortunately proves nothing. When we hear changes, we should ask “why.” And the explanation should be at least as convincing as cognitive bias.

At the end of the day, each of us gets to spend our own money. I would never argue anything else. But to the extent we want to suggest to our colleagues that they try ABC or XYZ—especially since all our systems differ in many ways—it helps to have a logical basis for the suggestion. Clocking a switch that feeds a buffered DAC? I‘m doing it right now because it clearly doesn’t hurt anything, but there is zero scientific theory, let alone evidence, how it can affect SQ. And please don’t post the link to the Uptone white paper. I’ve read it, I’ve even spoken over the phone with Alex about it. The claims of the white paper are intriguing ideas, with as yet no verifiable evidence that the problems the paper speculates about actually exist, let alone are audible or measurable. I believe that we cannot fully know and understand the human perception of music. But that doesn’t mean adopting magical thinking. Too much of audiovoodoo is exactly that. The fact that some surprising things do make an audible difference does not mean all things make a difference. It’s a fine line between open-mindedness and paranoid gullibility, just as there is a fine line between skepticism and stubbornness.
 

Parsons

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As I said, YMMV. I believe analog cables can make a huge difference. I have tried more than I care to admit. I believe in quality power and power cables. I believe in digital cables that meet spec. I know DACs make a difference, and I can hear the difference between my Vivaldi and MSB DACs, both of which I love. I use fiber to ensure that my otherwise well-tuned network doesn’t introduce problems to my music playback. I also use an EtherREGEN and GigaFoil where fiber is not an option. There are reasonable explanations for why each of those things could make a difference. I was amazed when the addition of the Vivaldi Clock and then my reference clocks was noticed by both me and my wife (unprompted). But “audiophile switches,” clocking switches (I tried connecting locking the ER), and stacking switches all have zero theoretical justification. There’s plenty of “I don’t know why, but I hear it,” which unfortunately proves nothing. When we hear changes, we should ask “why.” And the explanation should be at least as convincing as cognitive bias.

At the end of the day, each of us gets to spend our own money. I would never argue anything else. But to the extent we want to suggest to our colleagues that they try ABC or XYZ—especially since all our systems differ in many ways—it helps to have a logical basis for the suggestion. Clocking a switch that feeds a buffered DAC? I‘m doing it right now because it clearly doesn’t hurt anything, but there is zero scientific theory, let alone evidence, how it can affect SQ. And please don’t post the link to the Uptone white paper. I’ve read it, I’ve even spoken over the phone with Alex about it. The claims of the white paper are intriguing ideas, with as yet no verifiable evidence that the problems the paper speculates about actually exist, let alone are audible or measurable. I believe that we cannot fully know and understand the human perception of music. But that doesn’t mean adopting magical thinking. Too much of audiovoodoo is exactly that. The fact that some surprising things do make an audible difference does not mean all things make a difference. It’s a fine line between open-mindedness and paranoid gullibility, just as there is a fine line between skepticism and stubbornness.
I'm an extremely skeptical person, so I agree with 100% of what you're saying. I was merely suggesting the poster try optical network isolation which in the grand scheme, is pretty cheap, if you haven't tried it. You and I have both tried it and it's still in both of our systems. I have tried a lot more than that, at a lot great expense, and found that it made additional gains for me in my system...I wasn't suggesting that everyone should go that far (even though I think it's worth trying if you can afford to and care to, and then sell it if you don't like it or it doesn't make a difference for you).

I didn't really understand your comment about running optical in front of the ER implying something else being wrong if it makes a difference--that's one of the ways the ER was meant to be used.
 

drunkenspyder

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I didn't really understand your comment about running optical in front of the ER implying something else being wrong if it makes a difference--that's one of the ways the ER was meant to be used.
Yeah, I should have been clear-er, and maybe the word "wrong" is misleading. Sorry about that. First, I agree with everything you wrote. Completely. Fiber is cheap, and worth the expenditure/experiment, and so much better than "audiophile" Ethernet cables.. I also run fiber to my EtherREGEN. First, I was suggesting only that, if he has a problem post-ER that is solved by fiber coming to the ER, then he should be looking for other sources of that problem up the chain, because they could be affecting stuff not plugged into the ER. The ER "moat" should isolate whatever is plugged into the B side from everything else. And no amount of fiber should change that result. Second, the stuff he needs to be looking at is whether the short-side Ethernet is properly shielded/unshielded as the DAC or whatever is spec'ed for [dCS specs unshielded Cat5/6 compliant cable, for example]. He also needs to ask the question: okay, why did that fiber-to-ER run make a difference? What did I have going on there?
 

Parsons

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Yeah, I should have been clear-er, and maybe the word "wrong" is misleading. Sorry about that. First, I agree with everything you wrote. Completely. Fiber is cheap, and worth the expenditure/experiment, and so much better than "audiophile" Ethernet cables.. I also run fiber to my EtherREGEN. First, I was suggesting only that, if he has a problem post-ER that is solved by fiber coming to the ER, then he should be looking for other sources of that problem up the chain, because they could be affecting stuff not plugged into the ER. The ER "moat" should isolate whatever is plugged into the B side from everything else. And no amount of fiber should change that result. Second, the stuff he needs to be looking at is whether the short-side Ethernet is properly shielded/unshielded as the DAC or whatever is spec'ed for [dCS specs unshielded Cat5/6 compliant cable, for example]. He also needs to ask the question: okay, why did that fiber-to-ER run make a difference? What did I have going on there?
Got it. Spot on there. And please note I wasn't arguing, just trying to see if I am missing something in my own system that I should go revisit based on your findings. Thanks for clarifying and I appreciate your input on this topic and thanks for posting back.
 
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