Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?

stehno

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The real answer is to make off the shelf audio gear bulletproof to these factors; but this will take some research, and commitment to proper engineering ...

You make some good points. This last one is of particular interest. You're right and wrong. IMO.

The problems causing by far the greatest levels of distortion lie within the equipment. For example, John Curl said a few years back that all of his designs (and everybody else's too) contained at least one serious and unknown flaw.

He and I kinda' got into it but I tried to share with him that these were not flaws at all. I tried to explain that the components were simply incomplete in their design. And there's at least one most significant aspect that is outside of the designer's scope and control, though they could certainly improve on some aspects. The less but still significant flaw of conditioning noisy AC could perhaps be addressed within the component, but I'm not aware of any designer who has successfully and superiorly accomplished this yet. To the best of my knowledge, it's been accomplished by only a few mfg'ers of external line conditioners.

But that's ok. All one need to do is sift thru the haystack for a rare but superior line conditioner (most aren't worth owning), and noisy AC problem solved or at least greatly minimized. But with regard to noisy AC, most still don't believe in it. Most likely because their only experience with line conditioning, if any, was probaby with an inferior line conditioner that actually induced its own noise making the presentation sound even worse. The only problem there is that the enthusiast thinks all line conditioners are the same, and since his system sounds better without a line conditioner, his equipment must have been superiorly designed such that it doesn't need any AC filtering / line conditioning.

I mention this because it's actually a huge problem and obstacle. And designers face the exact same dilemma and thoughts many times. IOW, if their designs sound better without line conditioners (an inferior line conditioner), then they too are convinced there is no problem with the noisy AC from the street that universally impacts every last enthusiast. At least in the USA.

Hence, they (designers) don't see the need to do anything about it. And here we all are. As usual.
 

LL21

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...The less but still significant flaw of conditioning noisy AC could perhaps be addressed within the component, but I'm not aware of any designer who has successfully and superiorly accomplished this yet. To the best of my knowledge, it's been accomplished by only a few mfg'ers of external line conditioners.

But that's ok. All one need to do is sift thru the haystack for a rare but superior line conditioner (most aren't worth owning), and noisy AC problem solved or at least greatly minimized.

Which are the external line conditioners you like and which you think do the job properly?
 

fas42

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You make some good points. This last one is of particular interest. You're right and wrong. IMO.

The problems causing by far the greatest levels of distortion lie within the equipment. For example, John Curl said a few years back that all of his designs (and everybody else's too) contained at least one serious and unknown flaw.
Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply. Flaws in systems are something that far too few people concern themselves with, but something I have found rewards the investigator greatly if he goes about it in the right fashion.

Yes, it is not easy to make equipment robust against interference - I've spent years tussling with this, and still find that I can't achieve a competence with what I add to the equation that I'm fully happy with; this requires major dedication, which I don't have at the moment, to get all the answers.
 

stehno

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Which are the external line conditioners you like and which you think do the job properly?

I've been using various models of Foundation Research line conditioners (LC's) since 2001 and they are fabulous. The FR LC's are small, dedicated, passive, bi-directional filtering, and most importantly cleanse or purify the noisy AC coming in from the street. Installing the latest versions LC-10 and LC-100 without doubt would be the single greatest performance gain for perhaps any system out there. I can say this with confidence because I've experienced it myself umpteen times via my own systems over the years but also with friends and customers systems too. Many who already had line conditioners made by popular named mfg'ers.

Foundation Research went defunct a few years ago but it wasn't because of their performance. Over the years there were about 5 or 6 reviews on the FR LC's and as far as I recall, every reviewer purchased the demo units. Including Marty DeWolf of BFS who was big into line conditioning.

Rather, I suspect FR went defunct primarily because of crafty dealers who would install the FR LC's on their showroom systems but not actively market them. Why market a $1200 or $3300 LC with smaller profit potential if the customer thinks the $10k preamp or $20 amp is the cat's meow with far greater profit margins. Such is life in "high-end" audio.

From about 2005 - 2009 I sold FR LC's out of my home, along with Esoteric, nuforce, and a few other names to help fund my own R&D in another sector.

I suspect there are 2 or 3 other existing mfg'ers who make superior line conditioners but I've no firsthand experience with them.
 

stehno

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Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply. Flaws in systems are something that far too few people concern themselves with, but something I have found rewards the investigator greatly if he goes about it in the right fashion.

Yes, it is not easy to make equipment robust against interference - I've spent years tussling with this, and still find that I can't achieve a competence with what I add to the equation that I'm fully happy with; this requires major dedication, which I don't have at the moment, to get all the answers.

You are correct. Flaws are everywhere in a given system. Even compounded. There is no end to all the little flaws. But there are several huge flaws for which to focus and when these are properly addressed, you'll never hear another system produce such levels of musicality anywhere else. To the best of my knowledge, it's simply not possible.

Cleansing the noisy AC in a superior way will provide very large improvements in levels of musicality. Theoretically, this could be resolved inside a component should a designer really understand the severity of the harm induced by noisy AC and if they have the wherewithal to design the cure internally. If they cannot, the cure is still available externally.

BTW, there are some designers who will install a cheap $5 AC filter inside the component, usually right behind the IEC inlet and before the power supply. This does little else than reduce certain offending frequencies (and music) and at the same this cheap internal $5 AC filter can make even the best line conditioner sound like crap. Rule #1 with AC filtering / line conditioning. Never double up on differing methodologies. The results are almost guaranteed to sound worse, not better. Not sure why but it's true.

But there is another distortion that induces even far greater harm than noisy AC for which a designer cannot even begin to fully address within the confines of a component. And though my "meaningful dialogue" with John Curl was less than pleasant, I already knew what the problem was before he even admitted to all of his and all others' designs having at least one serious unknown flaw. I guess a serious flaw remains unknown if designers refuse to believe it, test it, or evaluate it. Especially when a designer claims to already know what the problem isn't. Even though they don't know the first thing about it. ;)
 
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fas42

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BTW, there are some designers who will install a cheap $5 AC filter inside the component, usually right behind the IEC inlet and before the power supply. This does little else than reduce certain offending frequencies (and music) and at the same this cheap internal $5 AC filter can make even the best line conditioner sound like crap. Rule #1 with AC filtering / line conditioning. Never double up on differing methodologies. The results are almost guaranteed to sound worse, not better. Not sure why but it's true.
Because it's always a filter, electrical in nature. There are many books written purely about the action of such filters - and one thing that's a no-no is chaining filters without understanding what's inside - using something like a Spice simulator helps one to get a handle on how to go about engineering things properly.

Over the years I've done a number of variations on adding DIY devices ...

But there is another distortion that induces even far greater harm than noisy AC for which a designer cannot even begin to fully address within the confines of a component. And though my "meaningful dialogue" with John Curl was less than pleasant, I already knew what the problem was before he even admitted to all of his and all others' designs having at least one serious unknown flaw. I guess a serious flaw remains unknown if designers refuse to believe it, test it, or evaluate it. Especially when a designer claims to already know what the problem isn't. Even though they don't know the first thing about it. ;)
There are a number of issues that "afflict" most systems - over the years I learnt the ways to knock each over; the goal is always to get what I call "convincing sound".
 

stehno

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Because it's always a filter, electrical in nature. There are many books written purely about the action of such filters - and one thing that's a no-no is chaining filters without understanding what's inside - using something like a Spice simulator helps one to get a handle on how to go about engineering things properly.

Over the years I've done a number of variations on adding DIY devices ...


There are a number of issues that "afflict" most systems - over the years I learnt the ways to knock each over; the goal is always to get what I call "convincing sound".

Good for you, Frank. That's a real can-do attitude you have there.

By the way, you wouldn't happen to know what the "serious unknown flaw" is that designer John Curl all components had, do you?
 

fas42

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I probably should, but can't put on a finger on it right now :p - as a by the way, I spent some time over at diyAudio over the last couple of years, and John was quite happy to admit he didn't have all the answers - but still always stuck to his point of view!
 

LL21

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I've been using various models of Foundation Research line conditioners (LC's) since 2001 and they are fabulous. The FR LC's are small, dedicated, passive, bi-directional filtering, and most importantly cleanse or purify the noisy AC coming in from the street. Installing the latest versions LC-10 and LC-100 without doubt would be the single greatest performance gain for perhaps any system out there. I can say this with confidence because I've experienced it myself umpteen times via my own systems over the years but also with friends and customers systems too. Many who already had line conditioners made by popular named mfg'ers.

Foundation Research went defunct a few years ago but it wasn't because of their performance. Over the years there were about 5 or 6 reviews on the FR LC's and as far as I recall, every reviewer purchased the demo units. Including Marty DeWolf of BFS who was big into line conditioning.

Rather, I suspect FR went defunct primarily because of crafty dealers who would install the FR LC's on their showroom systems but not actively market them. Why market a $1200 or $3300 LC with smaller profit potential if the customer thinks the $10k preamp or $20 amp is the cat's meow with far greater profit margins. Such is life in "high-end" audio.

From about 2005 - 2009 I sold FR LC's out of my home, along with Esoteric, nuforce, and a few other names to help fund my own R&D in another sector.

I suspect there are 2 or 3 other existing mfg'ers who make superior line conditioners but I've no firsthand experience with them.

Interesting...thanks.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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OP: "Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?"

BTW, with regard to your original question above. If any component or product can potentially reduce noise whilst inducing little or no new noise of its own, you've got a winner. What else would you possibly expect it to for you?

What do you think real audible improvements consist of? Or where they come from? You think you're actually adding musical information to your presentation if you hear a real and audible improvement? You're not.

All the music info you'll ever hear is already embedded into the recording medium. In fact, that same music info is also being processed throughout the chain. Only problem is, once read off the medium and by the time it reaches the speakers much of the music info becomes so distorted (noise) that it greatly raises the noise floor of a given playback system so that the distorted music info remains inaudible beneath the much raised noise floor.

If (and it may not be so) an upgrade like a power cable actually reduces noise by that much, your system's noise floor level has been lowered by that much and that is why you now might hear a little more music info than before.

It always has and always will be about lowering the very much raised noise floor, no matter what else you may have heard. There simply is no other way to legitimately improve levels of musicality. And to the best of my knowledge, there are only two ways to accomplish this.

1. Improved efficiencies.
2. Lowered resistance.

Probably also not a bad strategy to run a corporation or a Formula 1 race car. Although I suspect F1 racing already committed themselves to that exact mindset a decades ago. That's why they're so frickin' cool.
 
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BlueFox

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One great thing I have noticed with my power cords, and power conditioners, is they eliminate noise you didn't realize was there. After adding or upgrading you realize the music is now coming from an even quieter background than before. Amazing. Well worth the money to me. :)
 

amirm

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All the music info you'll ever hear is already embedded into the recording medium. In fact, that same music info is also being processed throughout the chain. Only problem is, once read off the medium and by the time it reaches the speakers much of the music info becomes so distorted (noise) that it greatly raises the noise floor of a given playback system so that the distorted music info remains inaudible beneath the much raised noise floor.
Our ears/brain have incredible ability to hear way into noise. Rise of noise as such does not mask music tones unless it is many, many dBs higher.

In addition, noise that is constant and coming from two speakers perceptually is less noticeable that signals coming out of one speaker. The directionality of the music tones coming out of the speakers wins over constant (AC mains driven) noise coming out of two speakers.

The above is likely an evolutionary trait to be able to hear the pray over the constant noise of wind for example. It was necessary for us to evolve to hear past the noise and hear a sound coming from specific direction. Having two ears and being about to filter out what is common between them is likely very helpful in this manner.

If (and it may not be so) an upgrade like a power cable actually reduces noise by that much, your system's noise floor level has been lowered by that much and that is why you now might hear a little more music info than before.
Maybe :).
 

amirm

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Let's also remember this: the more filtering a power cord does, the less transients it can handle. One goes with the other. Filter means less bandwidth. Less bandwidth means a signal cannot jump from one value to another quickly. The universe will cease to exist if this rule is violated. :).
 

stehno

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Our ears/brain have incredible ability to hear way into noise. Rise of noise as such does not mask music tones unless it is many, many dBs higher.

In addition, noise that is constant and coming from two speakers perceptually is less noticeable that signals coming out of one speaker. The directionality of the music tones coming out of the speakers wins over constant (AC mains driven) noise coming out of two speakers.

The above is likely an evolutionary trait to be able to hear the pray over the constant noise of wind for example. It was necessary for us to evolve to hear past the noise and hear a sound coming from specific direction. Having two ears and being about to filter out what is common between them is likely very helpful in this manner.


Maybe :).

Doubtful. And I'm being kind here. How odd that only with the sense of hearing, some like to reach down into the pits of evolution, prey, hunter gatherer, safety, ear/brain, etc. I suspect this nothing more than an attempt to create a straw man argument.

More importantly, a vast portion of playback system's distortion remain inaudible because it's below the much raised noise floor. Which so happens to be where much of the music info we never hear.

In other words, we need not worry about our "ear/brain's incredible ability" to try to reach deep into the noise for perhaps the vast majority of the distortions induced on our playback systems. Cuz there's little or nothing to hear.
 
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stehno

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Let's also remember this: the more filtering a power cord does, the less transients it can handle. One goes with the other. Filter means less bandwidth. Less bandwidth means a signal cannot jump from one value to another quickly. The universe will cease to exist if this rule is violated. :).

Regarding your comment "the more filtering a power cord does, the less transients it can handle."? There's simply no reason to believe this so I don't. A transient is simply a type of note among many types of notes. Since PC's are unintelligent, they are also indiscriminate. IOW, they cannot make any such distinction between types of notes. You may perceive a PC can handle less transients due to the frequencies suppressed, but the bandwidth should remain unchanged.

To the best of my knowledge, the filtering cleansing method is not the same as conditioning (tho the 2 terms are often times used interchangeably) does not generally (if ever) imply less bandwidth. Rather, filtering usually implies suppressing the most offending frequency ranges and bandwidth remains the same. The problem with this type of filtering is that as certain offending frequencies are suppressed all music info operating within those suppressed frequencies are also suppressed. A total and complete compromise. Since filtering per se has a tendency to suppress certain music info frequencies, I steer clear of "filtering" products and from using the term in a positive sense.

Again, bandwidth should remain exactly the same, unless per chance the filtering method employed were to actually squash (mute instead of suppresses) all transmission of energy over a given frequency range, which I suppose a few mfg'ers might try to do. But who would want such a PC? Then again, who would want any product that suppresses certain music frequencies?

Hence, we need not worry about universes collapsing.
 

Gregadd

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What music is traveling through a power cord? I think Amir was yanking our chain.:b
 

amirm

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Doubtful. And I'm being kind here. How odd that only with the sense of hearing, some like to reach down into the pits of evolution, prey, hunter gatherer, safety, ear/brain, etc. I suspect this nothing more than an attempt to create a straw man argument.
You want to get killed at the hands of the other camp, insist that what you said was true. They will hang you by your tie showing that your room is way noisier than anything you are talking about and hance you don't need any equipment resembling high-end. They will also show you the same being true in the recording venue and you are cooked :). Your only friend will be psychoacoustics which was the basis of my argument back on this front in the article I wrote: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomDynamicRange.html

In other words, don't go there. :)
 

FrantzM

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Regarding your comment "the more filtering a power cord does, the less transients it can handle."? There's simply no reason to believe this so I don't. A transient is simply a type of note among many types of notes. Since PC's are unintelligent, they are also indiscriminate. IOW, they cannot make any such distinction between types of notes. You may perceive a PC can handle less transients due to the frequencies suppressed, but the bandwidth should remain unchanged.

To the best of my knowledge, the filtering cleansing method is not the same as conditioning (tho the 2 terms are often times used interchangeably) does not generally (if ever) imply less bandwidth. Rather, filtering usually implies suppressing the most offending frequency ranges and bandwidth remains the same. The problem with this type of filtering is that as certain offending frequencies are suppressed all music info operating within those suppressed frequencies are also suppressed. A total and complete compromise. Since filtering per se has a tendency to suppress certain music info frequencies, I steer clear of "filtering" products and from using the term in a positive sense.

Again, bandwidth should remain exactly the same, unless per chance the filtering method employed were to actually squash (mute instead of suppresses) all transmission of energy over a given frequency range, which I suppose a few mfg'ers might try to do. But who would want such a PC? Then again, who would want any product that suppresses certain music frequencies?

Hence, we need not worry about universes collapsing.

Transient are the things that go fast and quick .. aka High Frequencies ..If you filter to reduce the Highs then you can't handle transient very well ... Noting to believe. Fact. If you supress anything bandwidth changes .. It cannot remain the same ...Out for now
 

marty

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I'd like to share with you the results of a year plus effort to identify a power cord that I think performs remarkably well and is affordable.

But let me begin by saying that although I've been struggling with this quest for a very long time, the most recent and productive part to my journey began shortly after visiting the great Karmeli last year. David urged me to tear out some very high priced power cables and replace them with some of the cheapest PCs cables ever made. But don't be fooled. They weren't just any cables. Rather they were discovered by David after a very long quest. They are not made by a famous audio manufacturer, but by a huge industrial company in China. David loaned me a few pair. Don't pay attention to anything, he said, except the naturalness of the midrange. Because if you ain't got that, then whatever else the cable does makes it worthless in his opinion. And sure enough, from the minute I gradually substituted one, two and then three of his cables for mine, I was dumbfounded. What I could not see until that point, is how I went down a rabbit hole thinking my expensive cables were superior, when in fact they were not superior in the most basic of attributes, which was delivering a natural sounding midrange. Oh, they may have offered better this or that, but the bottom line was that I was kidding myself because I lost a key element to my system's overall musicality- the critical natural sounding midrange. Yup. David's insight was a real eye-opener for me. (This is what audiophile friends are for!! Friends do not let friends listen drunk!)

Fast forward. Since that time, I began a search for a no frills, inexpensive cable that might actually improve slightly on David's El-cheapo cables, particularly in the extremes since I honestly didn't think improving the midrange was easily accomplished. However, I did think my expensive PCs may have rendered the bass a tad better, so the search began. I'll cut to the chase. I've tried a lot of stuff (including the famous Pangea w Cardas wire). And I've done it in a very controlled, single variable series of experiments, always using the El-cheapos as a control. I'm now at the point that I can say I'm satisfied with the outcome of my listening experiments and have settled on one cable that I think performs beautifully for me. Its basically a variant of this: http://www.audioartcable.com/Articles.asp?ID=153.

This wonderful cable is NOT the top of the line cable from Audio Art, a small, custom manufacturer of interconnects and PCs that has been around for a long time and sells direct to the end-user. Their 1SE PC is nothing fancy and has no filters of any kind, but rather is a well made, well shielded cable made of copper. The key is NOT to order it with the Furutech F28 rhodium connectors but rather with the Gold connectors at both ends. Audio Arts sells a top of the line PC cable that frankly, I did not like as it is made from silver platted copper wire. So it is the more inexpensive copper PC, the 1SE with Furutech F28 gold plug set, that floats my boat. For about $500 bucks (ask for the "I'm nobody special" discount- you'll probably get one), its not only damn good, but as of yet, I have not found anything substantially better. Not only is the midrange gorgeous and natural sounding, but the extremes are also very good. Taken as a whole, there is nothing about it that calls attention to itself in any way. At least in my system. Of course YMMV, but for me, it's a compelling game, set, match. At least to the point that I am thankfully done for now and have no desire to look further or spend more money than 500 bucks for a PC. Oh, and here's the best part. When you place an order, you will deal with Rob Fritz, the owner, who not only replies promptly, but offers a money back guaranty! That's correct. Don't like it? Send it back. I tried a lot of Rob's cables and believe me, sent several back (interconnects as well) and it didn't phase him at all. But he really does have at least one gem in his stable, the 1SE PC with the F(28)G plug set. I would suggest starting your evaluation by trying one on your pre-amp, and the take it from there if you like it. I think you'll soon see why one has grown to six in my system.
 
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stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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You want to get killed at the hands of the other camp, insist that what you said was true. They will hang you by your tie showing that your room is way noisier than anything you are talking about and hance you don't need any equipment resembling high-end. They will also show you the same being true in the recording venue and you are cooked :). Your only friend will be psychoacoustics which was the basis of my argument back on this front in the article I wrote: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomDynamicRange.html

In other words, don't go there. :)

Oh, I realize you're far from alone in this mindset. And I had no intention of "going there" cuz, well, IMO, it's little more than soap bubbles and a colossal waste of time. That's why I didn't and wouldn't "go there". At the very least, such dogmatism does nothing to legitimately improve a system's level of musicality. Though I suspect it can be clever strategy to help justify one's lack of trained ears and/or complacency for their apparent inability to progress. ;)
 
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