analog tape vs. D2D

puroagave · Jul 23, 2012

I have an observation about analog recordings in different formats and im wondering if anyone else has noticed the same. I have many direct-to-discs LPs that were also released as an LP mastered from tape of the same recording session and red book CDs mastered from this tape. from my experience, and this goes without exception, the D2D is superior to either the LP or CD mastered from tape and the CD is often very close to the LP mastered from tape but both still inferior to D2D.

Im often astonsihed at the realism and dynamic range available through LP playback with D2D recordings, so much so that im wondering if analog tape is the weak link here. I'm no expert about the disc cutting process but id venture to guess theres more dynamic range, less compression and better frequency response through LP cutting equipment that it exceeds the potential of the tape itself. Comments?

Bruce B · Jul 23, 2012

puroagave said:
I have an observation about analog recordings in different formats and im wondering if anyone else has noticed the same. I have many direct-to-discs LPs that were also released as an LP mastered from tape of the same recording session and red book CDs mastered from this tape. from my experience, and this goes without exception, the D2D is superior to either the LP or CD mastered from tape and the CD is often very close to the LP mastered from tape but both still inferior to D2D.

Well that is an unfair comparison for a D2D title to be be up against its tape to LP/CD since the later has gone through 2 conversions or more. The real comparison is the direct D2D and the analog master. I'm sure the D2D may have a greater dynamic range but the tape's stereo separation and analog coloration will be more favorable in the listening session.

puroagave · Jul 23, 2012

Bruce i was hopin' you'd bite, thanks for the reply. in a broad sense a digital copy should be a close duplicate to an analog master tape with regards to freq response, dynamic range, etc. D2D in direct comparison to a CD or Lp mastered from tape, one can easily detect the artifacts of tape, like hiss -- as faint as it may be -- i'm also hearing a loss of low end punch, transients are softened and less defined with less trebble energy. as you say i guess the fair comparison is D2D vs. analog master tape but would a R2R dupe be clearly superior to an LP if one agrees the weaker link is tape and not LP cutting/mastering process?

stockfish records released a D2D and SACD of a DSD master of the same recording session, presumebly to showcase the best of both formats, i dont have it be it would be interesting to compare them and if any conclusions can be drawn (most likely not).

MylesBAstor · Jul 23, 2012

Yeah but their LPs and the D2D is DMM.....Arghhhhhhhhhh......

A short blurb from Wiki:

Criticisms of DMM Recordings

With the groove being cut straight into a metal foil, this removed a number of plating stages in the manufacturing process. This gave rise to more upper frequency levels and less surface noise. Additionally, groove pre-echo problems are significantly diminished.

DMM LP pressings are sometimes described by some as having a harshness or forwardness in the high frequencies. The fact the groove is cut to copper, a hard metal, and not to soft lacquer, nitrocelullose, supposedly endows DMM vinyl LP with a very different tonality to traditionally manufactured vinyl LP pressings. Direct Metal Mastering requires a radically different cutting angle than traditional (lacquer) cutting, almost 0 degrees[3]. However the playback cartridges will always have the standard playback angle of 15–22.5°. Thus, the DMM process includes electronic audio processing [4] so the records can be played with a standard cartridge despite having been cut at a substantially different angle. This electronic processing might account for the supposedly different high frequency "signature sound" of DMM records.

http://www.resolutionmag.com/pdfs/KNOWHOW/VINYLA~1.PDF

Bill Hart · Jul 27, 2012

My problem with D2D is that many, if not most, were pablum, musically speaking. The first one I remember was 'The Missing Link," with that great photo of the Neumann (?) lathe on the back cover. I'm sure there are a few that are ok- I was listening to an Eastwind Hank Jones the other day I loved- but a lot of these records were almost designed as 'demo' records from the start. One of my personal favorites is a Flamenco (dance) Direct to Disc record that sounds like somebody hammering on your head with wood blocks for 40 minutes. I could probably make a list....

microstrip · Jul 27, 2012

I have most of the Sheffield lab D2Ds - they are really great music. Unhappily they only issued about twenty recordings.

flez007 · Jul 27, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
Yeah but their LPs and the D2D is DMM.....Arghhhhhhhhhh......]

+1

puroagave · Jul 27, 2012

whart said:
My problem with D2D is that many, if not most, were pablum, musically speaking. The first one I remember was 'The Missing Link," with that great photo of the Neumann (?) lathe on the back cover. I'm sure there are a few that are ok- I was listening to an Eastwind Hank Jones the other day I loved- but a lot of these records were almost designed as 'demo' records from the start. One of my personal favorites is a Flamenco (dance) Direct to Disc record that sounds like somebody hammering on your head with wood blocks for 40 minutes. I could probably make a list....

agreed. at best many D2D are of dubious artistic value and in many cases created just for demming equipment (percussion, bangs, gongs). The other limitation is the entire performance must be recorded live in one take. you'd also probably find few muscians, let alone popular ones, that would let their talent (or lack thereof) ride on one take and not have creative license to 'improve' it in post production.

the main reason i brougt this up, its my opinion that D2D is sort of a highwater mark in analog recording and palyback when you consider very very few people have access to first gen, 30 ips R2R tapes. Id even go as far as saying a D2D may best R2R in some cases, i have no way to confirn this maybe Doug Sax will chime in (wishful thinking!).

GaryProtein · Jul 27, 2012

Back in 1986, Joe Jackson recorded the album "Big World" specifically for CD at the Roundabout Theater in NYC. The LP version was sold as a double album with only three sides recorded.

The recordings were made from parts of three nightly shows. They were recorded "Direct to two track Digital Metal Master" for CD. All mixing was done during rehearsals and the resulting recording of the performances has NO post production, just like a direct to LP disk. The album is described as exactly what the audience heard during the shows.

I have to say, it is very clear, clean dynamic recording. It's too bad this technique isn't used more often. In fact I am not aware of any other CD or SACD disks recorded this way. If anyone DOES know of any, I would appreciate their posting info on those recordings.

cjfrbw · Jul 27, 2012

When I was reading the "Graceland" thread, I went back to the album and read that some of the cuts used some kind of direct metal master. Don't have the album until I go back to Pleasanton, but that seems to be one more.

puroagave · Jul 27, 2012

cjfrbw said:
When I was reading the "Graceland" thread, I went back to the album and read that some of the cuts used some kind of direct metal master. Don't have the album until I go back to Pleasanton, but that seems to be one more.

that would imply it was cut to a direct metal master from tape, which differs from the D2D technique of recording live (usually in studio) and cutting direct to lacquer in one fell swoop. Myles is saying the stockfish D2D were cut to dmm instead of lacquer - which might be the first of its kind (that ive heard of anyway) but not desireable, imo from a sonic standpoint and i believe Myles would agree.

MylesBAstor · Jul 27, 2012

puroagave said:
agreed. at best many D2D are of dubious artistic value and in many cases created just for demming equipment (percussion, bangs, gongs). The other limitation is the entire performance must be recorded live in one take. you'd also probably find few muscians, let alone popular ones, that would let their talent (or lack thereof) ride on one take and not have creative license to 'improve' it in post production.

the main reason i brougt this up, its my opinion that D2D is sort of a highwater mark in analog recording and palyback when you consider very very few people have access to first gen, 30 ips R2R tapes. Id even go as far as saying a D2D may best R2R in some cases, i have no way to confirn this maybe Doug Sax will chime in (wishful thinking!).

I think you have a good point about D2D being the best source for most audiophiles. I've had many discussion with people about which is better: tape or D2D. My take is that we're nearing/hearing the limits of the medium and while one may say there's less processing/production on the D2D, I still like tape better. OTOH, the M&K Realtime D2D blows away and wins hands down over the M&K LP made from back up tape.

As mentioned before, there is the artistry issue. Mistakes aren't tolerated anymore on recordings.

But I'm not as big a lover of D2D as I believe others are here. The Sheffields always had a weird bass issue (Amanda McBroom comes to mind as one example) and the classical recordings were drier than the Mojave desert. I'd say I might play 1/3 of the Sheffields, the Michael Newman, James Newton Howard, Drum Record and Confederation being among the best recordings. There were several very good releases on M&K including the revered For Duke, Fatha, Hot Stix and The Roger Wagner Chorale. The Crystal Clear are also very good but too closely miked. Among the better issues are the Charlie Byrd, Laurindo Almeida (primarily the second side) and the two Carlos Montoya albums (really captured the sound of his guitar live!). Then there's a smattering of others including a John Klemmer, etc.

There were other D2D made by other companies that were awful too so being D2D doesn't ensure good sound either.

bdiament · Jul 27, 2012

Hi Gary,

GaryProtein said:
Back in 1986, Joe Jackson recorded the album "Big World" specifically for CD at the Roundabout Theater in NYC. The LP version was sold as a double album with only three sides recorded.

The recordings were made from parts of three nightly shows. They were recorded "Direct to two track Digital Metal Master" for CD. All mixing was done during rehearsals and the resulting recording of the performances has NO post production, just like a direct to LP disk. The album is described as exactly what the audience heard during the shows.

I have to say, it is very clear, clean dynamic recording. It's too bad this technique isn't used more often. In fact I am not aware of any other CD or SACD disks recorded this way. If anyone DOES know of any, I would appreciate their posting info on those recordings.

I love Joe Jackson's "Big World" (though I wish less compression and less high-pass filtering was used).

How's this: Recordings done with *no* console, no mix, direct to two-track with only two (matched, high resolution) microphones -- one mic per playback channel to keep the signals truly time coherent, no processing and no compression. Balances are achieved by pushing instruments and vocalists rather than by pushing faders on a console. The full dynamics of the performance are kept intact. Recordings are done at 24/192.
Mastering involves sequencing the songs, adjusting the spacing between them and perhaps some minor level changes since the recordings are made with lots of headroom.

Take it another step: the musicians get a big piece of every sale (much more in fact than the biggest acts get from the major labels). And composers, not the record company, keep the publishing rights to their own compositions, 100%

How do I know about these recordings? I produce, record and master them myself.
If this sounds interesting please check out Soundkeeper Recordings.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

mep · Jul 27, 2012

All most all of my Sheffield D2D LPs have noise issues and the ones that have noise issues were factory sealed when I bought them and noisy the first time I played them. I bought the first Amanda McBroom LP three times and they were all noisy. My Drum Record is noisy. James Newton Howard is so-so in the noise department. It’s been many years since I played the Confederate LP and I don’t remember the noise levels on that one. My copy of Tower of Power is pretty clean.

On the other hand, my “For Duke” is real quiet and it was a gift from a friend of mine and it originally came from a radio station so go figure.

microstrip · Jul 27, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
(...) The Sheffields always had a weird bass issue (Amanda McBroom comes to mind as one example) and the classical recordings were drier than the Mojave desert. I'd say I might play 1/3 of the Sheffields, the Michael Newman, James Newton Howard, Drum Record and Confederation being among the best recordings.

Myles,
You are forgetting the best of them - the "THE KING JAMES VERSION ", the Thelma Houston and the Dave Grusin. AFAIK the Moscow sessions were not D2D. And the Amanda McBroom and Lincoln Mayorga sounds great in my system! As they say, YMMV.

MylesBAstor · Jul 27, 2012

microstrip said:
Myles,
You are forgetting the best of them - the "THE KING JAMES VERSION ", the Thelma Houston and the Dave Grusin. AFAIK the Moscow sessions were not D2D. And the Amanda McBroom and Lincoln Mayorga sounds great in my system! As they say, YMMV.

Yes YMMV.

My problem with the Moscow Sessions is I don't want to hear Russian musicians performing American compositions and vice versa. I WANT to hear Russians doing Russian music as only they can!!! Thelma and Grusin are OK but the music doesn't do anything for me

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