Italian artistry and world class sound...the world of Sonus Faber
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Hello Anerol. Very interesting first post. I must say that I am very surprised that you say that when you owned the GH's, that the soundstaging didn't satisfy you. What size of room were you using the GH's in? Did you try various positions of the speaker in the room? I ask these questions, as it has certainly not been my experience with the GH's that they lack anything in the soundstaging dept. In fact, I would say that this is one of the speaker's many great strengths. I would even go as far as to say that the GH has a much better ability to throw a soundstage than the AH, even in larger rooms.
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Hello Anerol. Very interesting first post. I must say that I am very surprised that you say that when you owned the GH's, that the soundstaging didn't satisfy you. What size of room were you using the GH's in? Did you try various positions of the speaker in the room? I ask these questions, as it has certainly not been my experience with the GH's that they lack anything in the soundstaging dept. In fact, I would say that this is one of the speaker's many great strengths. I would even go as far as to say that the GH has a much better ability to throw a soundstage than the AH, even in larger rooms.
Hi Davey,
I am not at all surprised that you say that. The GH is a wonderful speaker and I miss it to some extent. Here more precisely a response to your question. My room is 4.8m x 4.9m and 2.4m high. It is almost as bad as it can get. Very similar resonances in all 3 dimensions. The rear wall behind the speakers is a top to bottom glass window. The floor is tiled with only one large carpet. Remember, I gave up on the AH due to too much bass.
When I measure the frequency response in the room I see up to minus 14 db in the range between 100hz to 160hz and a peak of plus 12 db around 40 to 60 hz. The only way to get this half way in order was an Accuphase DG48 and the fully adjustable Velodyne sub. I now have an almost flat response curve in this so imortant range.
While I had the GH I haven't had the same level of experience with these tools and probably gave up too early. The Minimas stand differently now than the GH did at the time. All this means that the Minimas have better conditions which explains some part of my conclusion.
One thing that always intrigued me were the very high stands of the GH. This may explain a bit why the GH sounds a little less "grounded" than other designs from SF. I spoke to a very experienced guy and technician about this who did say that these high stands might be owed to the design of the filters. A 6db xover procures that the transmission is directed slightly to the bottom. This makes sense since almost all other SF 2 way designs have a tilted front showing upwards. Even the AH has a tilted front for th midrange and tweeter. Dynaudio does the exact opposite, i.e. they put their two way designs on low stands and invert the chassis order.
Again I probably should have made some more testing with the GH than I did. However, the Minimas despite of all I just wrote are an amazing speaker who do things I have never heard anywhere else. And what they do appears right as so often in all SF designs.
I hope this explains a bit my room problems, research and solutions.
Anerol
Anerol, I was expecting you to answer that your room was the problem. That would perfect sense as the speakers ( The GH's) in my mind wouldn't have been the problem. I think a better solution for you in a room like this is to look into some acoustic treatments.
I am a very BIG believer in acoustic treatments, I know in my room they were a huge improvement and locked in not just the soundstage but also removed a veil that was evident across the spectrum.
I'm not so sure that one can get the same results in the electronic realm, particularly when dealing with hard surfaces such as tile and glass.....which IMHO are some of the worst things to have to deal with in your room.
In my case, Real Traps were the answer...I might suggest these to you as well. The Minimas are great speakers, just not quite as "mature" as the GH's, IMHO.
Hello All – new to this forum and glad to have found it.
My Sonus Faber journey began with a pair of Electa Amators. I have very fond memories of them and their astonishing soundstage. They were replaced by Extremas, which I continue marvel at and use in my main system to this day. A recent system wide cable upgrade revealed that I’d not actually known the full capability of these extraordinary speakers. As a result of that experience and my fear that they would soon disappear from the marketplace, I bought a complete set of replacement drivers from Sumiko.
I’ve also a pair of Minuettos (wonderful!) in my office, as well as four (original - not "Home") Concertinos and a Solo center channel in my home theater. They all perform beautifully, especially with human voice.
My Sonus Faber journey began with a pair of Electa Amators. I have very fond memories of them and their astonishing soundstage. They were replaced by Extremas, which I continue marvel at and use in my main system to this day. A recent system wide cable upgrade revealed that I’d not actually known the full capability of these extraordinary speakers. As a result of that experience and my fear that they would soon disappear from the marketplace, I bought a complete set of replacement drivers from Sumiko.
I’ve also a pair of Minuettos (wonderful!) in my office, as well as four (original - not "Home") Concertinos and a Solo center channel in my home theater. They all perform beautifully, especially with human voice.
I still miss my GH and Extremas, very musical sounding (love the Esotar) as well as their fit and finish.
BEL 1001 Mk V amps - mono config - these are the best SS amps I've ever heard - miraculously neutral/transparent, adding nothing to the signal. Unfortunately, Richard Brown is no longer with us; he created a masterpiece.
Yes, me too I am a Sonus Faber fan. Amati Homage, Guarneri Homage and Minima, in that order. May sound strange but the smaller they get, the better they are. I once organised a pair of original Electa Amators for a friend. Yes, the Esotar version. I still regret I never owned them myself. They are probably the best AND the rarest. The smaller woofer midrange driver is likely to be quicker than the Extrema one.
I have moved on to a pair of Dynaudio Acoustics C2s. They are the first generation Dynaudio professional monitor speaker using also the Esotar one tweeter. I have had a large variety of speakers including the original Apogee Scintillas, for me these little Dynaudios respond to everything I expect from a home audio system.
The C2s have been sold for home use under the name Crafft. If you have the opportunity to hear them somewhere give it a try.
The Minimas are still with me with a set of replacement drivers in a safe place, you never know.
I have moved on to a pair of Dynaudio Acoustics C2s. They are the first generation Dynaudio professional monitor speaker using also the Esotar one tweeter. I have had a large variety of speakers including the original Apogee Scintillas, for me these little Dynaudios respond to everything I expect from a home audio system.
The C2s have been sold for home use under the name Crafft. If you have the opportunity to hear them somewhere give it a try.
The Minimas are still with me with a set of replacement drivers in a safe place, you never know.
I used to have the same 1001 Mk V amps driving the Extremas and they are a great match. Some 6 months ago, I replaced the BEL amps with the Burmester 911 mono (together with the 808 preamp) and the Burmesters took the Extremas to another level (or several levels) higher. Just recently, I replaced the 911s with the Gryphon Mephisto amp and the Mephisto took the Extremas to an even higher level of performance. I found the Extremas work best with high quality class A amps.
I am told the Electa Amators were part of the inspiration for Franco Serblin to do the Guarneri...and i have heard many people say their favorite is the Electa Amator. I know the owner of a major audio dealer here uses them at home, despite his ability to pretty much have almost anything he wanted.
The Sonus Faber Amati Futura are an incredible speaker. I had a pair in my room for a few weeks with the ARC REF150. This all ARC system filled the space with sound, and the speakers and walls completely disappeared. They have a reticent, but very detailed treble and bass enough, with adequate slam. Although I love the two pairs of Electa Amator with original wood and stone stands that I have in the family room home theater, there is no comparison between them - IMHO the Futura's are a much better (and much more expensive
) speaker.
I think here that the discussion gets very interesting. As you can re-read here above I started my Sonus Faber journey with the Amati Homage and ended up with the Minima FM2 going by the Guarneri Homage. Two things seem relevant to me here:
Small Speakers
Small two way designs have very significant and to me relevant advantages which have been discussed up and down for many years. Among those often referred to like imagigng, the small membranes of a bookshelf speaker are probably the best compromise between large, heavy and efficient, but slow, drivers and horn designs, that use small, light and stiff membranes and add horns to gain in efficiency. If you look at the bass / medium driver of the Extrema you get by the pure size of the magnet of this driver an idea of what Franco Serblin undertook to overcome the slowliness of this driver which is a bit bigger than the drivers in most two way designs and still a lot smaller than the woofer in a three way design.
The compromises you may have to make are bottom end extension and maximum sound pressure level. The top end extension is not compromised since the top bookshelf speaker employ the same tweeters (the Esotars, Vifa Ringradiators, Scanspeak D 2008, etc.) as there floor standing brothers.
The max spl only matters to those who can listen loudly AND want it.
The low end extension is yet another issue. Most high end small speakers provide a pretty low -3 db point in a small to midsize room. In my room it varied from speaker to speaker between 38hz and 50hz. In my current set set up a Dynaudio Crafft is used that goes down just about to 40hz. I have added to that a Velodyne DD12+ which adds the 15hz to 40hz range with full level.
What is the effect of this in my system? The first good thing is that adding a sub this way has absolutely no negative impact on what the Craffts do in terms of homogenity, attack, impuls, soundstaging, etc. The other thing is that most of the time, I do not hear the woofer. If it provides audible information it is mostly limited to electronic music, acustical music often does not go that deep. What you have some times is the feeling that the sub is "rounding" up the presentation by some sort of oumpf or, more sophistically put, some room reveberation which helps to better grasp the scenery presented.
Why do I write all this? I like to advocate two things.
The Esotar is still one of the three two or one best tweeters in the World and hence I understand everyone, at least from that angle, that prefers an Electa Amator (only the first series) or an Extrema over any other Sonus Faber speaker disregarding of their generation. Thus I respond to what has been written above.
Furthermore, I would like to encourage everyone who does not have a hall to fill with music to have a serious look at small speakers. The cabinet is the most expensive part of a speaker, hence a small cabinet is cheaper than a big one and two speakers are cheaper than three or four or five or ........ hence the designer can invest in better driver quality right from the beginning.
Finishing this, and waiting for your thoughts, I´d like to add that if anyone has a pair of series 1 Electa Amators for sale, please let me know.
Small Speakers
Small two way designs have very significant and to me relevant advantages which have been discussed up and down for many years. Among those often referred to like imagigng, the small membranes of a bookshelf speaker are probably the best compromise between large, heavy and efficient, but slow, drivers and horn designs, that use small, light and stiff membranes and add horns to gain in efficiency. If you look at the bass / medium driver of the Extrema you get by the pure size of the magnet of this driver an idea of what Franco Serblin undertook to overcome the slowliness of this driver which is a bit bigger than the drivers in most two way designs and still a lot smaller than the woofer in a three way design.
The compromises you may have to make are bottom end extension and maximum sound pressure level. The top end extension is not compromised since the top bookshelf speaker employ the same tweeters (the Esotars, Vifa Ringradiators, Scanspeak D 2008, etc.) as there floor standing brothers.
The max spl only matters to those who can listen loudly AND want it.
The low end extension is yet another issue. Most high end small speakers provide a pretty low -3 db point in a small to midsize room. In my room it varied from speaker to speaker between 38hz and 50hz. In my current set set up a Dynaudio Crafft is used that goes down just about to 40hz. I have added to that a Velodyne DD12+ which adds the 15hz to 40hz range with full level.
What is the effect of this in my system? The first good thing is that adding a sub this way has absolutely no negative impact on what the Craffts do in terms of homogenity, attack, impuls, soundstaging, etc. The other thing is that most of the time, I do not hear the woofer. If it provides audible information it is mostly limited to electronic music, acustical music often does not go that deep. What you have some times is the feeling that the sub is "rounding" up the presentation by some sort of oumpf or, more sophistically put, some room reveberation which helps to better grasp the scenery presented.
Why do I write all this? I like to advocate two things.
The Esotar is still one of the three two or one best tweeters in the World and hence I understand everyone, at least from that angle, that prefers an Electa Amator (only the first series) or an Extrema over any other Sonus Faber speaker disregarding of their generation. Thus I respond to what has been written above.
Furthermore, I would like to encourage everyone who does not have a hall to fill with music to have a serious look at small speakers. The cabinet is the most expensive part of a speaker, hence a small cabinet is cheaper than a big one and two speakers are cheaper than three or four or five or ........ hence the designer can invest in better driver quality right from the beginning.
Finishing this, and waiting for your thoughts, I´d like to add that if anyone has a pair of series 1 Electa Amators for sale, please let me know.
I am not surprised. In the entire Sonus Faber range only the Extrema and the Electa Amator I used the Esotar tweeter. Thereafter this tweeter was either too expensive or no longer avaiable. The Guarneri Homage uses the D 28, a nice tweeter but not the same class as the Esotar. The D 28, by the way, was used also in the Parva and in the Minima (all versions).
The Electa Amator I uses the Esotar and a smaller Audio Technology woofer compared to the Extrema. Sure the Extrema can do more and louder bass I am though not sure that the Extrema is as quick in the mids as the Electa Amator and, for that purpose, the ultra light Seas bass / midrange driver of the Minima.
Franco always liked small speakers and, apparently, said something like: Bass is problematic, when you don´t have it, you want it and when you have it you fight the problems that come with it. Have a look at the Accordo. It uses a paper cone woofer / midrange like the Minima and a Scanspeak tweeter close to the Esotar, why is that???
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