Just When You Thought You've Seen It All

NorthStar

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I love it when folks with no experience with an idea or process voice strong opinions based on ignorance.

This process works very well, though I've never seen it recommended for use with Elmer's Glue. The preferred is Titebond II wood glue. The process is the same, but it does take a few applications to get the feel of it to get the surface of the vinyl covered smoothly and without runoff. I used Freezer Paper (essentially a wax-type paper) under the record so if glue does come off the record while you're smoothing it out, it doesn't stick to anything.

It can be messy if you're not careful, and you don't have to apply it on a turntable. Once you get enough glue on the disk by applying it with the pointed dispenser, circularly around the record, I just use a plastic credit card to distribute it smoothly on the surface. The glue doesn't stick to the card, either. Just peel it off when dry.

When you do the peeling, start from the edge of the record by lifting the glue layer up and away from the vinyl. Keep the peeling large and move slowly. Avoid leaving little pieces or strips of glue on the vinyl. They're a bear to remove individually. Too thin to pull up the tiny layer afterwards.

I do reserve this step for seriously messed up records. There's no point in going through all of this process on records in good condition that you could clean normally (though it won't hurt anything unless you're sloppy with the glue). I follow this step with a standard two step Disk Doctor cleaning and rinse on an RCM. If the record is still particularly noisy after this much, an application of Last record preservative adds some lubrication that quiets 'rough groove wall' noise down a bit.

--Bill

Myles, Bill has the perfect answer to your prior question (in Purple color).
 

MylesBAstor

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Myles, Bill has the perfect answer to your prior question (in Purple color).

Why not a toothbrush? Lotta people do that?

Besides the enzyme cleaners do a far better job even on albums in <VG state. How do you get the proteinaceous gunk out of the record grooves eg. that stuff from the cell walls of bacteria and mold? That crap buried in the grooves adds a lot of pops and ticks. Glue ain't gonna do it. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what the original Discwasher fluid was designed to do (FYI Bruce Maier, founder of Discwasher, had his doctorate in biochemistry and realized this issue 30 yrs ago). it wasn't until Bugtussel a couple of years ago that someone made a enzyme cleaner for LPs.
 

NorthStar

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Tootbrush? ...With Baking Soda?

* I still have my original Discwasher brush, and even some Discwasher fluid;
but it does NADA (ZIP) to remove 'hard stuck debris' from the grooves.

Talkin' 'bout second-hand LPs here in the rougher (crude, turbulent) conditions.
 

treitz3

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Talkin' 'bout second-hand LPs here in the rougher (crude, turbulent) conditions.
Hello, Bob. This is where RCM's, steam cleaning and/or ultrasonic cleaning comes into play. A toothbrush only works as good as it does on your teeth and may damage part of the playback on a microscopic level. The steam cleaner will even help with those LP's that have mold but you have to know exactly what you are doing, otherwise one risks the same abuse to the substrate as a toothbrush or even worse.

Tom
 

NorthStar

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Hello, Bob. This is where RCM's, steam cleaning and/or ultrasonic cleaning comes into play. A toothbrush only works as good as it does on your teeth and may damage part of the playback on a microscopic level. The steam cleaner will even help with those LP's that have mold but you have to know exactly what you are doing, otherwise one risks the same abuse to the substrate as a toothbrush or even worse.

Tom

I know that Tom. :b

And not only you have to know what you're doing, but there are steam cleaners, and there are steam cleaners. :b
...Just like there are filthy albums (LPs), and there are filthy Vinyls (LPs, Records, Acetates...). :b

P.S. Emoticons are easily removable, without any chemicals. :D
 

Soundproof

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Maybe Myles, who appears stuck on "negative," should try glue ... ? How does he know that glue "doesn't get that out"?

It's both physics and chemistry, Myles. The glue invades the grooves but is kept from attaching itself to the vinyl at the electron level, because of repulsion between the glue and the vinyl - it does, however, suck up everything that isn't vinyl. Quite remarkable. As it's time consuming, it's something I would only use if nothing else does the job, particularly as I have an excellent Audiodesk USC, which you are also skeptical of, Myles.
But an acquaintance with an extremely large and very valuable vinyl collection swears by the glue method, saying it beats everything else available. Go figure.
 

MylesBAstor

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Maybe Myles, who appears stuck on "negative," should try glue ... ? How does he know that glue "doesn't get that out"?

It's both physics and chemistry, Myles. The glue invades the grooves but is kept from attaching itself to the vinyl at the electron level, because of repulsion between the glue and the vinyl - it does, however, suck up everything that isn't vinyl. Quite remarkable. As it's time consuming, it's something I would only use if nothing else does the job, particularly as I have an excellent Audiodesk USC, which you are also skeptical of, Myles.
But an acquaintance with an extremely large and very valuable vinyl collection swears by the glue method, saying it beats everything else available. Go figure.

Because it's chemically attached and isn't even removed using conventional RC methods. See Buggtussel's SEM photos. Maybe you could explain how glue would remove the bacterial exoskeleton?

Bottom line: just like any cleaning method want to know it's safety and would like if possible, a SEM to show that it both cleans and doesn't leave anything in the groove. Even the thinnest film will degrade the sound as well as possibly g unk up the cartridge.
 

FrantzM

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Myles

I would think the glue would adhere to anything in the grooves.. Same glue will adhere to my protein based skin with no problem ... Why do you thinkit will not do the same for these protein-based junk inside the grooves? I still would like to know what the Titebond II, which seems to be what is recommended on many forums would do to the Vinyl?
Now the enzymes would digest the protein-based gunk but don't you have to remove , said junk? The glue method seems to come up with everything. Again what is wrong with the method>
 

mep

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I think if I had a record that was so hosed that I was considering putting glue on it in a desperate attempt to clean it, I would probably throw the record in the trash and buy another copy. The video that Steve posted did show that surface noise was reduced after the glue peel, but it wasn't eliminated. There is a difference between dirt in the grooves and damage to the record grooves. You can't fix damaged grooves. It just seems like a cute parlor trick to me. I’ll pass.
 

Soundproof

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I think if I had a record that was so hosed that I was considering putting glue on it in a desperate attempt to clean it, I would probably throw the record in the trash and buy another copy. The video that Steve posted did show that surface noise was reduced after the glue peel, but it wasn't eliminated. There is a difference between dirt in the grooves and damage to the record grooves. You can't fix damaged grooves. It just seems like a cute parlor trick to me. I’ll pass.

Yes. And how does the glue damage the record grooves?
Are you surmising, assuming or proposing a fact that you can back up?

Just asking because I'm curious to learn from you and Myles, who so eagerly share your experience with the method.
 

MylesBAstor

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Yes. And how does the glue damage the record grooves?
Are you surmising, assuming or proposing a fact that you can back up?

Just asking because I'm curious to learn from you and Myles, who so eagerly share your experience with the method.

Why don't you answer my question first instead of answering a question with a question? I don't need to back it up; they do to convince me.

Can u say Rainex?

Hey as I said, caveat emptor.
 

mep

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Yes. And how does the glue damage the record grooves?
Are you surmising, assuming or proposing a fact that you can back up?

Just asking because I'm curious to learn from you and Myles, who so eagerly share your experience with the method.


Soundproof-You are quick to jump to conclusions my friend. I didn’t say the glue would damage the grooves. I was referring to damaged grooves being a cause of noise and all of the glue in the world isn’t going to fix damaged grooves. Lots of records have lived tough lives with people that owned crappy tables and arms with cheap cartridges that were never aligned properly and the records were never cleaned. You add up years of abuse and one of these Goodwill $1.00 Rice Krispie Symphony specials is probably beyond help.
 

Soundproof

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Soundproof-You are quick to jump to conclusions my friend. I didn’t say the glue would damage the grooves. I was referring to damaged grooves being a cause of noise and all of the glue in the world isn’t going to fix damaged grooves. Lots of records have lived tough lives with people that owned crappy tables and arms with cheap cartridges that were never aligned properly and the records were never cleaned. You add up years of abuse and one of these Goodwill $1.00 Rice Krispie Symphony specials is probably beyond help.

Just me reading with my fool's glasses on, then!

I was probably as skeptical as anyone else to the use of wood glue on records, but quickly found long threads on various fora that discussed the method, and showed to examples. As I like to experiment, I tried it out. As one can only do one side at a time, it's quite time consuming, requiring many hours - but it does extract whatever is in the grooves through sheer adhesion and electromechanical force between the plastic and the waterbased glue.
The latter is why the glue lets go in one sheet - it appears to be adhering to the vinyl, but there's an electrons thin separation between the two materials. Quite fascinating.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

We audiophile are a funny bunch. Titebond II Woodglue , seems to be the glue most quoted in the Fora I visited since I read this thread and remember there were back in thelate 70s a product like that ..
A thought experiement : Let's suppose someone comes up with a product in a Stainless Steel container, clear product with a nanocarbon paddle and a an ergonomic handle. The product is a careful researched compound which will bond to the LP and anything in the grooves but because of the years of intense research cannot break anything in the grooves since the tensile strength of the adherent is less than the irreversible mechanical loss of elasticity of the chloride-vinyl acetate copolymer compression molding compound (That 'sa Vinyl LP for you people :)).. It has been shown that LP fine grooves can be host to bacteria and other micro-organisms , some with proteinic exoskeleton and that the compound does adhere to these as well. The most stupefying thing about this product is that an electron (!) width separation continue to exist between the Vinyl itself and the compound, thus no part of the record really touches the compound , only the dirt and "gunk"
The process is long and require hours for each record to cure with he compound at preferably 25 deg celsius.. So AC is required as a constant temperature must be maintained for the duration of the curing phase ...
The quantity is ml enough to treat 500 records. The price about $350

The product was designed by a Chemistry PhD from Caltech who was an an analog loving audiophile. with a record collection of 5,000 LP and uses the Clear Audio Statement Turntable ...
Those who have tried the products report of lower background noise.. Lowered noise floor and opening of the soundstage?



What would have been the reaction then?
 

bblue

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Apr 26, 2011
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Soundproof-You are quick to jump to conclusions my friend. I didn’t say the glue would damage the grooves. I was referring to damaged grooves being a cause of noise and all of the glue in the world isn’t going to fix damaged grooves. Lots of records have lived tough lives with people that owned crappy tables and arms with cheap cartridges that were never aligned properly and the records were never cleaned. You add up years of abuse and one of these Goodwill $1.00 Rice Krispie Symphony specials is probably beyond help.
I don't believe anyone is saying that the glue fixes damaged grooves whereas other forms of cleaning don't.

NO form of cleaning, steaming, enzymes or whatnot will fix or substantially improve damaged grooves. Worse, toothbrushes, the VPI Nylon brush and a few others will damage grooves just by their use/overuse by creating fine scratches lengthwise on the groove walls. It takes very very little change on the wall to be quite audible. I've not heard of anything that is going to remove that type of damage, though Last will help by reducing friction (and therefore noise) somewhat.

[aside:] I have wondered at times whether or not a very soft buffing brush or rotary attachment (slow speed) might smooth such aberrations enough to make a difference and without otherwise damaging sharp directional changes of the groove. Probably not. I haven't tried it. But it would seem as though some time of controlled polishing might work.

But the glue method will remove a substantial amount of crud in and on the grooves where (in some cases) multiple cleaning passes would be necessary. And it's not so time consuming, since you're not standing there waiting for the glue to dry. Just apply it, walk away, come back the next day and peel it off. Not a big deal.

I really hate to potentially contaminate my RCM cleaning brushes, RCM turntable and environment by working with extremely dirty records. You could pre-rinse or even pre-wash in the sink, but you still risk contamination of your carefully handled cleaning brushes from tap water (at the very least) to muddy gunk remaining in the grooves. (experience, not heresay or opinion). The glue method really works well in these cases, because it is chemically vinyl based. It won't/can't stick to plastics and vinyl, but does stick to most anything else, and leaves no residue on vinyl.

You naysayers have little to contribute except that you don't have any experience with it.

--Bill
 
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FrantzM

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Soundproof

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The challenge is to set a high enough price tag. I can get 750ml for USD 11, which is clearly not high enough. Adding a zero and multiplying by five, should do it.

Changing the packaging is a must.

 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
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If one wants to make a fortune, he would be better served figuring out how to re-virginize something else.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. :rolleyes:
 

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