How will the next generation CLX speaker be better?

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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What do you guys think ML will do to improve the CLX in the next generation?
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
Hola. I would like more deeper bass. I do like the quality of the upper bass notes of my CLXs, but a sub is a must. There is the region where I think they should be improved. From the upper bass to the top end, are magical. Happy listening!
 

JonFo

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Jun 11, 2010
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One way is to add an option for a fully active crossover instead of a passive design. They used to offer this on the Monoliths.

Another way to improve, although heresy to some, would be to go monopole for the bass panel. What kills the low-end is that it's fighting against physics as currently it's a dipole. Me, I'd close off the back using a Transmision Line alignment.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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My world view these days is that subs are necessary for any system regardless of bass capabilities of the main In the case of the CLX, I would suggest that they improve what they can in the mid-band say from 100 to 20 KHz ... add more dynamic capabilities in the mid-bass and midrange and simply filter out 100 Hz and down with a hard slope making sure that the panels receive little to nothing in the way of bass below 100 Hz and leave real bass to a cone based subs , it could be dipolar by the way ...

Seems I am trying to suggest that they bring back the Statement or a mini-version of it based on the CLX design ... :)
 
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JonFo

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Frantz, agreed, a good sub (or multiples) can augment and deliver the right foundation for any system. In the case of the CLX, I also recommend subs regqrdless.

Even with a super-high-performance mid-bass section (60 - 400Hz), a good sub is still a must.

Speaking of mini-statements and closed back mid-bass line-arrays, I have been there and done that with MLs, as seen below in my own custom center channel (which is bolted to my quad-driver IB sub):

FullFrontalViewBottonLit_sml.JPG

This outperforms my Monoliths in the mid-bass by such a margin, it's not even funny. And a CLX I heard could not equal it either (could have been the room/setup).
 

Uk Paul

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Sep 27, 2012
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Yep, integrated LF unit and improved frame / panel support & damping would be where ML 'could' seek an improvement to CLX IMO.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I am using this old thread about the CLX to ask a question about them: did any one male a direct comparison between the CLS and the CLX? More precisely, are the CLX fuller sounding than the CLS?
 

puroagave

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Sep 29, 2011
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I just acquired a second pr of CLSs, this time they're IIz's with newest panels. I think I have a handle on the CLS sound and the last pr of CLXs I heard were no more 'fuller' sounding, In practice me thinks the lower freq cut-off is about the same for both speakers even tho ML claims a -2 db in the low 30s for the CLS and the low 50s for the CLX.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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I just acquired a second pr of CLSs, this time they're IIz's with newest panels. I think I have a handle on the CLS sound and the last pr of CLXs I heard were no more 'fuller' sounding, In practice me thinks the lower freq cut-off is about the same for both speakers even tho ML claims a -2 db in the low 30s for the CLS and the low 50s for the CLX.
Good to know...congrats on the CLS. They are classics I wish I could hear for myself. There is a lot to like in the CLX.
 

Uk Paul

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Indeed Lloyd, it (CLX) is a wonderful speaker.. One that I will consider next time around space permitting of course..
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
I am using this old thread about the CLX to ask a question about them: did any one male a direct comparison between the CLS and the CLX? More precisely, are the CLX fuller sounding than the CLS?

Hola. Yes, in all aspects, highs, mids and low frequency. It is another beast!. I had all ML CLS models since 1987. Ended with the CLSIIz and had them for over 16 years. I did have the Kinergetics SW-800 along with them. Jack English, from Stereophile did a review with them and the CLSIIz. But when I had the chance to listen the CLX, the angel Cupid hitted my heart with a very thick arrow!. Everything is much better...right size of the instruments, the sense of 3D, the image, the timbre of the musical instruments and vocalss, thousand times more dynamic and better resolution. Its a better speaker in all ways. Easier to drive, you do not need a big power amp to drive them. Also, the new stat panel has over 40% the diaphragm exposed to the air. This feature makes more efficient the whole panel, and a reason why now you can use small power amplifiers to drive them very well.
I do really like this new for me CLX...it is one of the "must have" speaker on the marketplace today.
Happy listening!
 

Big Dog RJ

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Feb 2, 2012
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The CLSIIz was a very fine full range stat. It was a hard ball to play with, especially difficult to drive even with powerful amps claiming top performance. The impedence curve was notorious and could actually shut down many so called high-end contenders without prior warning. The highs and mids were superb, until you listened to the Quads, which actually had a midrange bump to over-play that area. The CLS did have limited bass but this this apparent when driven inadequately. Amps that I used at the time were more than capable- Manley Ref 350's, and the CJ Premier 8 monoblocks at one point. The main issue with stats in extremely humid climates, was they just didn't last over a year or so. Wires started to corrode and perish faster than expected, glues would easily break off and the Quads were just a nightmare.

This is about when I did away with all stats and we took delivery of Ribbons at the dealership, mostly Maggies and they lasted far longer than stats. However, we all missed that immediacy in stats, with both the CLS and Quads for that matter.

Fast fwd nearly 25 years, and now we have the CLX, which is a completely different stat altogether. They new "X"-stat air frame is far more rigid than ML previous designs. The panel is vacuum bonded rather than glued, and the cross over uses very high quality parts. The efficiency factor is probably the biggest improvement over a wide margin, therefore making the imedence curve far more tolerable compared to all ML stats in the past. The added high efficiency factor also caters to the ability to be driven with low-moderate power amps, even solid state having Class A power ratings.

The bass (when driven properly) is simply superb! It is probably the fastest bass I have ever come across to date, full range bass from a triple stator panel design. I still hold a strong view point that this full range stat is meant to be driven "full range" to experience that bass energy movement is simply breath taking and the speed and articulation is marvelous. The moment a sub is added, this will kill and over-power that affect. It will just be another dynamic-stat hybrid config, might as well stick to the Masterpiece line of hybrids and claim the Neolith to be the best.

There is nothing more pure than a full range panel, be it a stat or ribbon, when driven across the entire radiating surface area, the sonic presentation is unhindered, un-colored, and very natural. Adding a sub is an artifice to me, I wouldn't even bother to demo a full range stat with a sub woofer system in it, no thanks mate.

For those who find that the CLX is inadequate in the lowest registers of bass, and adding a sub gets your fix- so be it! Enjoy whatever floats your boat. As I said before, you have just ruined a pure marvelous high grade Cognac...

To improve on the CLX? I don't really see any areas that it requires further improvement, I sincerely think ML have done it here very well. Improvements can eventuate from the upgrade in electronics because Kostas and Roberto have upgraded their electronic components, this has definitely increased the level of sonic performance by quite a factor and their experiences have been very positive. Hence, this is the only area of improvement I could think of at the moment.

Those who own CLX's and have been with them for quite a while now, will immediately realize the benefits in upgraded sound when compared to the CLS. Those who had obtained a CLS system before, were probably never bass oriented listeners to begin with. Therefore, to claim that the CLX is inadequate in the bass area is just silly. This is obviously coming from dynamic driver type preferences and those who are used to dynamic drivers all their life! The CLX and CLS, and Quad stats are "full range" not hybrids nor sub oriented designs. Compared to dynamic driver designs, yes- they are less bass responsive, obviously!

A fine cognac, high grade single malt whiskey is meant to be enjoyed in its intended way. Similarly the new ML CLX is a work of art and beauty!
Cheers to all CLX owners and have a blast!
RJ
 
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roberto

Well-Known Member
Hola amigos,

Now that I have a full broken Conrad Johnson preamplifier ET-7 and a Classic One Twenty SE power amp driving my CLXs, I have to report that this is the best system that I ever had. I love the dynamics, love the timbre, the wide steady stage with the right size of the musical instruments and voices.

My room is small, but it does not matter at all. I find myself moving my foot along with the rhythm of the music and having the feeling the musician(s) playing for me right here!

Every time that I play my system it is an emotional experience. I am re-discovering all my music. I am truly enjoying it this much!

I have listening many great systems with much better components and bigger rooms. They also sound fantastic. All I can say, that having my friends and customers with such great systems, I come home and play mine, and I do not find myself missing anything. I am so accustomed to the quality of this system, that my ears always tell me: man, you are in the right track. The overall sound is very well balanced, I can play a big organ bass notes with the help of a Martin Logan BF-210 sub. And there is no bass coloration, or heavy bass notes coming from a double bass...the reproduction of how Brian Bromberg plays the double bass is fantastic...and always he is playing in front of me, not next to me.

The CLXs are not perfect, but their minor flaws are so little that your forget in less than 30 seconds that you are listening a two channel stereo, because they do disappear. You can't say that the sound is coming from them...the music floats in the air with, and the right way. When you listen to a piano, it is like magic. This magic is granted by Conrad Johnson gear, my Exasound E-32 DAC, the Lush USB cable, the Uptone Audio JS-2, the Nordost Blue Heaven Interconnects and Speaker cables, the Apple Mac Pro, and the CLXs. This is my liking and not necessary must be yours, but I assure you that listening it, every friend that comes for a listening time, we always forget that we are listening to my system and we start to listen what the musician(s) are doing and how they are playing their musical instruments and voices.

Happy listening!
 
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Big Dog RJ

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Nice one Roberto mate!

I may add to something you've already listed, Nordost cables & interconnects, along with CJ amplifiers and stats, have an extraordinary fine level of performance that is not only SOTA but something that's special to just this combination. Prior to the CLX's, going back over nearly two decades, I had the Apogee Diva's, driven by the CJ premier 8A monoblocks, the ART preamplifier and previous to that several iterations of Maggie's, MGIIIa, 3.3/R, 3.5/R, 3.6/R, MG20,20.1 and the Quads... All sounded marvellous with this combination. Using a full cable/interconnect array from Nordost Red Dawn, it always made listening to music an absolute pleasure!

Fast forward that to nearly 25 years, and now with the CLX's and the upgraded CJ amplification, plus once again a top tier of cables & interconnects from Nordost, it has reached a certain level of pristine realism that is totally engaging to what I was used to. It's a bit difficult to explain entirely without auditioning in person. Once you've experienced this level, you know straight away you've got it right!

I cannot think of owning a better speaker system for the money & value the CLX's offer. Definitely "the truth in sound" no doubt!

I do understand the time it has taken for your ET7 to break-in, that's basically about the average time it really does take to fully open up, and a few people who have taken the ET7 home with them ended up returning it, simply because they didn't have the patience to deal with required break-in time. They've missed out on a superb preamp! And to top that up, the ET7- S2 takes even longer, simply because it has a lot more Teflon caps!

That combination of the ET7 and Classic 120SE with the CLX's is just about as good as it gets! Using a similar combination but on slightly different config with monoblocks, and the CLX's, I wouldn't bother changing anything!

Sit back and enjoy, it's time to pour some scotch and light that cigar!
Cheers mate and have a good one, RJ
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
Thanks RJ,

I do know that your CLXs must be sounding as good or better (you have better electronics to drive them) than mines. I assure you that I have being into these by some time too. Before ML, I had the Tympani 3B by Magneplanar, and also the Apogee Duettas. Also had the Beveridge 2SW and the model 3. The sound of the electrostatic speakers are my liking. Being also a musician, my ears are accustomed to the real thing...and this is the close that I ever being with reproducing the recordings.

Conrad Johnson makes my system to sound right! I love the harmonic texture of the musical instruments and voices. I do really like this much!

Happy listening!
 
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Gregadd

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I can"t say for sure but I think ML is done with the CLX. Essentially the CLX is thier attempt to give bass to the CLS. IMO more bass means bigger panels ala Soundlab. Not likely I think. It would appear their solution to more bass.is come drivers. It is just easier to do.
With regard to bass their emphasis seems to be on room correction. The Renaisance 15a seems the way to go. Reports are that ML subs work well with CLX.
I agree. I used the cj premier 11 a with the CLS. Magnicent.
They is another solution
A custom made line source tower. Check out GR Research.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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I can"t say for sure but I think ML is done with the CLX. Essentially the CLX is thier attempt to give bass to the CLS.

. . .

I agree on both points.

I have been hearing about a 15 inch ML subwoofer for three years now, and even that seemingly modest evolution of their 12 inch subwoofer has not yet appeared.

I all but begged Peter Soderberg for a Statement 3 consisting of a Neolith midbass woofer coupler on both the top and the bottom of the Neolith ESL panel + a subwoofer tower with three of the Neolith 15” subwoofers, but we ain’t seen it yet (and I think we never will).
 
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roberto

Well-Known Member
Hola,

just a little words. The CLXs are made by thinking to use with them a sub for each channel and part of their design. The special bass filter that you can download from the Martin Logan site for their subs, BF-210 and BF212, and is the way to go for the perfect bass match. I just believe that the low frequency that is lacking from the CLXs, is for reproduce an organ church deep bass or big drums. The frequency response of the CLXs are stated +-3dB from 56Hz and up. This means that you have, with the right position at the room, still 40Hz perhaps at -4 or 5 dB. The exceptional bass energy is granted by double bass stat panels and are configured in bipolar mode. The midrange and high frequency is dipolar. The bass speed stat panels are providing an incredible double bass timbre with the musical bass natural resonance. This is what I do like most.

Did no know that the heaviest musical note from a big grand piano is an A musical note with a frequency of 27.5Hz. Also this lower musical scale is not used very much, because the piano has problems to reproduce it too.




We love the low frequency....but usually we are overbass. Our ears are for language, for communication between other humans and animals. Our ears are not too good for low frequency or high frequency. When you find a not educated ears using an equaliser, you will find at the device a big V at the knobs. Bass energy and high frequency is more present to their ears. Why is this? Because we don't hear bass and highs.

Regarding Peter, he is a very humble person with good ears. Peter is my friend. When he started to work with Martin Logan, the first thing that he did, was to call me via phone and when we got together at a CEDiA show some years ago, he said that it is good to have in his mind my face. When I got a good earthquake here in Costa Rica, the first person to offer me with help for my CLXs, was Peter.

Believe when I say that I could live without the sub with my CLXs. The double bass is reproduced without any artificial coloration. The deep notes are there, but perhaps without the intensity that we like. It is good for our ears to listen live music without any amplification. Just the solo instrument with its natural resonances. The CLX is very accurate with this.

Remember that the sound is granted by a change of pressure at the air. The heart of the CLXs, is the diaphragm that weights less than the air that it moves. Because it so light that it will move as fast as the signal is applied. And will stop moving as fast as the signal is not present. Other speakers with mass, once it is accelerated, you need to stop it, because of the inertia of the device. This inertia cause distortion.

Do a little test. Bring your ears to a tweeter and listen... horrible, right? A 3 feet away this horrible sound is diminish by a lot. 6 feet away, your ears can't tell. Well, part of the transparency of ML is the lack if this distortion. Bring your ears next to the panel, and what you hear is crystal clear sound.

Rare instruments their highest musical notes barely get to 5KHz, the harmonics at the violin is also around this 5KHz. Why we need more? Because of the ambience. And to have air between the musical instruments and voices.

My last words for you my friends,

Happy listening!
 
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Gregadd

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For the ultimate in frequency extension maybe cj s not the answer.
Roberto
You may be a man of few words but never little. Smile.
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
Hey friends,

I would like to add about the bass of the CLXs and this is what ML says:

Low Frequency Transducer
DualForce™ double diaphragm, triple stator dipole low-frequency electrostatic transducer » Panel Dimensions : 57" x 11.5" (144.8 x 29.2cm) » Radiating Area : 656 in² (4,228 cm²).

Not quite small, right? Because there is no cabinet enclosure, the user must adjust the room's low frequency resonance for the deepest bass possible, along with the CLXs. This low frequency intensity has to do with the behind wall and their position. User must have about 3 feet away from this wall, but moving the speakers inches to the back or inches to the front can "tuned" this low frequency resonances. You can find where they exhibit the best bass performance, at your golden seat and the room. Once you had found this location, adjust the speakers for the best wide stage possible too.

Regarding the bass deepness and CJ, I rather like to have quality than quantity. CJ had brought to my system a superb quality sound! Believe me, it is that good. As I always say, this is my liking, and not necessary must be your liking. Who knows? You might like it too, as I do!

Happy listening!
 

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