Acoustic design consulting: value for money

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Monument, CO
Seems reasonable. Analysis tools have become relatively cheap and relatively easy to use, the problem is to convince people of the need for your (anybody's) expertise. Not everyone with a word processor is an author... It still befuddles me how so many audiophiles do not spend anything (or almost nothing) on the listening room, arguably the single biggest influence on sound once you achieve a basic level of audio system performance.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Seems reasonable. Analysis tools have become relatively cheap and relatively easy to use, the problem is to convince people of the need for your (anybody's) expertise. Not everyone with a word processor is an author... It still befuddles me how so many audiophiles do not spend anything (or almost nothing) on the listening room, arguably the single biggest influence on sound once you achieve a basic level of audio system performance.

I hope that more people will use the measurement tools that are available cheaply now to do a 'health check' on their room. Most people will be shocked to see how their room measures relative to high end standards. Jeff Hedback and I are almost finished with our white paper that outlines what these standards should be. These targets have been sorely missing but once we have these then it will be a relatively simple case of saying 'does my room meet standards' or not? If not then you should expect some major audible sound quality issues to be apparent. Once the white paper is published I intend to make the measurement process easy even for those who have never used these tools before. I don't see why everyone shouldn't measure their room. Even if they don't know how to fix it they will at least see in most cases that their room is pretty bad relative to the targets.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Seems reasonable. Analysis tools have become relatively cheap and relatively easy to use, the problem is to convince people of the need for your (anybody's) expertise. Not everyone with a word processor is an author... It still befuddles me how so many audiophiles do not spend anything (or almost nothing) on the listening room, arguably the single biggest influence on sound once you achieve a basic level of audio system performance.

You can say that and while some argue it is a fact .. Incotrovertible fact!

@Nyal

It is self-promoting, nothing wrong with that. Your article however is no BS and summarized nicely the reality of Acoustic Treatment/Design.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
You can say that and while some argue it is a fact .. Incotrovertible fact!

@Nyal

It is self-promoting, nothing wrong with that. Your article however is no BS and summarized nicely the reality of Acoustic Treatment/Design.

I am trying to get the message out there. Education is important in this area of the market...we here at WBF seem to mostly understand it that's why I like to test it out with you guys first :)
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Keep on doing what you're doing Nyal, the word NEEDS to get out. Like Frantz said, it's a no BS paper. If the effort of putting out these articles gets you more work, all I can say is good for you. You worked for it so you deserve it. What's more important is that people have options.
 

mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
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Pukalani, HI
Hi all

I just finished an opinion article for my blog on acoustic design consulting and the value for money equation.

What do you think?! Options: bang on, self promoting bullshit or something else entirely?!

Nyal

"We would never claim to be able to offer the same end result as a PMI or KYDG room. Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost."

How do you prove your claim?

IMO, the best audiophile acoustic value is Jim Smith's DVD "Get Better Sound," which cost $19.95.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
"We would never claim to be able to offer the same end result as a PMI or KYDG room. Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost."

How do you prove your claim?

IMO, the best audiophile acoustic value is Jim Smith's DVD "Get Better Sound," which cost $19.95.

Good question.

With the current lack of any published industry agreed targets for what the acoustical measurements of a high end audio listening room or home theater room should be there is no objective way to prove the claim. I am hoping the whitepaper that will be published soon will allow everyone to start evaluating their own rooms and the work of acoustic designers.

Subjectively speaking you would need to be able to do a test with the same equipment in room A designed by company A vs room B designed by company B. That would be very difficult.

I agree that Jim Smith's book is a good starting point however it will not get you to the same quality level as even I think a design provided by an acoustic design company. Assuming you have got your equipment set up as best as it can be (which Jim's book is great at showing you how) then installing any level of acoustic treatment is going to generally make a further improvement. I do like the way Jim has made his book SO easy to understand. It is perfect for someone who has no understanding of room acoustics. To reach the next level up you need next level tools: acoustic measurements in particular. Although Jim advocates use of an RTA that is really not the right answer. It has no visibility into how sound is decaying within the room which is absolutely critical for examining the low frequency decay, balance of reverberation time across the spectrum and level of reflections relative to the direct sound.

Thanks for your support Jonathan and Jack! Part of my reason for doing this is to advance understanding in the customer base and part of my reason is to advance the whole industry. I am going to keep plugging away at this. I like what SpectraCal has done for the video calibration business: bringing tools and education further down the cost ladder thus increasing its penetration into the customer base - result - more people have better displays.
 

mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
1,512
11
36
Pukalani, HI
Subjectively speaking you would need to be able to do a test with the same equipment in room A designed by company A vs room B designed by company B. That would be very difficult.

You obviously haven't done this, so "Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost" is just "self promoting bullshit."
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
You obviously haven't done this, so "Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost" is just "self promoting bullshit."

U are SUCH a worthwhile addition to the community here at WBF Devert :)
 

Ron Party

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
2,457
13
0
Oakland, CA
You obviously haven't done this, so "Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost" is just "self promoting bullshit."
Nyal having come over to my room, and my personally observing him, his equipment and his technique, and my having had numerous conversations with him, I can unequivocally state to you, Dan, that you are out of line.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
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Hi Nyal,

I appreciate your article - for me basically when going from zone 1 to zone 2 you are just wisely saying that you get better value for money if you add knowledge and brains to materials :). But your graph is mostly promoting the Keith Yates Design Group - if doubling the typical low cost of a 30% entry solution goes to 95% with this known company I would not hesitate...
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Hi Nyal,

I appreciate your article - for me basically when going from zone 1 to zone 2 you are just wisely saying that you get better value for money if you add knowledge and brains to materials :). But your graph is mostly promoting the Keith Yates Design Group - if doubling the typical low cost of a 30% entry solution goes to 95% with this known company I would not hesitate...

What I was trying to show (and I had numerous attempts at the chart) is that zone 2 goes from 30% quality to 90% quality and that zone 3 goes from 90% to 100%. Maybe there is a better way of visualizing this?! Please let me know!
 

mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
1,512
11
36
Pukalani, HI
U are SUCH a worthwhile addition to the community here at WBF Devert :)

Nyal,

Unlike you, I'm not using WBF to promote a business with claims I can't support.

You asked: "What do you think?! Options: bang on, self promoting bullshit or something else entirely?!"

You can't support: "Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost."

I'm just replying with one of your options.
 

mauidan

Member Sponsor
Aug 2, 2010
1,512
11
36
Pukalani, HI
Wow! Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

Your "tactful" use of colorful language is quite impressive:

Chuck,

If you had taken the time to read the start of this thread, you would have seen that Nyal asked:

"What do you think?! Options: bang on, self promoting bullshit or something else entirely?!"

I just replied with one of his options.:cool:
 
Last edited:

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Chuck,

If you had taken the time to read the start of this thread, you would have seen that Nyal asked:

"What do you think?! Options: bang on, self promoting bullshit or something else entirely?!"

I just replied with one of his options.:cool:

I would like to just post Deverts PM to me for everyone to see:

---------
Bullshit

"You obviously haven't done this, so "Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost" is just "self promoting bullshit."


"U are SUCH a worthwhile addition to the community here at WBF Devert."

And you are just a worthless bullshiter trying to hang on to the achievementsof real experts.

---------
I think the rest of you might agree that his last sentence is a bit over the top....I don't mind people having their own opinions - without it the world would be a poorer place - but what I do object to is people not being constructive. Destructive just isn't good for anyone.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I would like to just post Deverts PM to me for everyone to see:

---------
Bullshit

"You obviously haven't done this, so "Our claim is that we can deliver 80-90% of the results for 10% of the cost" is just "self promoting bullshit."


"U are SUCH a worthwhile addition to the community here at WBF Devert."

And you are just a worthless bullshiter trying to hang on to the achievementsof real experts.

---------
I think the rest of you might agree that his last sentence is a bit over the top....I don't mind people having their own opinions - without it the world would be a poorer place - but what I do object to is people not being constructive. Destructive just isn't good for anyone.


I agree Nyal.

Dan, c'mon man, this is unacceptable behavior and you know better than this.

Warning issued
 

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