Better ....... or Just Different

audioguy

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Apr 20, 2010
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I've always said the better the room, the less you'll need to spend on speakers/equipment.

Totally agree.

I was in the home of a very, very well known audio reviewer (in my SigTech days) and he had these ginormous speakers (I won't mention them as you would know of whom I speak) in what would have been the living room and not a single ounce of any kind of room treatment could be found anywhere. ZERO. ZIPPO. NADA. NOTHING. And the system sounded AWFUL. But he sure had a bunch of cool (and borrowed) equipment in there ;)

I quit reading anything he reviewed long ago.

The folks from GIK Acoustics are headquartered here and his motto is: "It's ALWAYS the room. ALWAYS"
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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Hi

I would like to see some of the reviewers on this list tackle such a project. For example would like to read what the CLX would become with such an arrangement.. CLX plus 3-subs or the MG 1.7 and 3.7 plus 3 -subs ... Little YG (KiPod?) with 3-subs... etc.

Agreed. I would as well. in fact, i think i posted something to that effect on TWBAS 2012? I have also posted somewhere i heard the CLX by itself several times...liked and respected but not loved...and then i finally got to hear them set up with ML's Descent subs...which have built-in pre-settings specifically for the CLX. That was special. the set up still needed work, but it was much improved over the CLX by itself (which never had the impact i needed, nor the body in the midrange)...and it showed serious promise...for much less than many of the all-out-assault pieces we see these days (YG Anats, Alexandrias, Q5, Vivids, etc.) BTW, FWIW, though i acknowledge the CLX/Descent was not optimally setup...i did hear the Wilson Slamms and Alexandrias in the same room...and they were definitely better than the CLX/Descent...as they should have been for the price! But boy you can get close with the CLX/Descent for a lot less...
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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But boy you can get close with the CLX/Descent for a lot less...

And that is true for a number of other speakers and speaker combos as well. If the CLX/Descent gets you 95% of the way there, that next 5% is REALLY expensive.

I think the Maggie 20.1's + great sub would do the same thing for a lot less than $50K. The trick with this combo is sub/main integration. With something like a TacT 2.2XP, it is reasonably straight forward.

Another possible example of getting close for not a lot of money might be the Evolution Acoustics MM Micro One and a great sub. But the integration is what will make it or break it as well !!
 

JackD201

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"I would have liked to see Montana"
 

MrAcoustat

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Jun 5, 2012
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I have spent a fair amount of time in the last 4 or 5 years listening to different speakers, all (for the most part) in the sub $30,000 price range. The initial purpose was to make an educated decision for my own purchase but eventually to determine how much one had to spend to get a speaker that was better in every single category than any other speaker in this general price range (approximately $10,000 to $30,000). Included in this list were my existing Dunlavy SC-VI’s; Maggie 20.1’s, Wilson speakers below the Maxx, Seaton Catalysts/SubMersives, Vandersteen 5’s, Avalons, Dynaudio, top of the line Aerial, Salons, and a few others I can’t remember. I did listen to the two larger Wilson speakers as well (the latest incarnation of the Maxx and Alexandria) but I will assume from the results I heard, that room setup must not have been optimal (even though I heard them both in multiple dealers/venues) since they would not have passed my criteria either. Given the rave reviews from all who have visited our fearless leader and his Alexandria’s, apparently in the right room with the right electronics they would pass my test. So does that mean that in order to be better in all categories the speakers I listed, I need to spend $150,000 on speakers and another $150,000 on amps?

When I say “every single category” I am taking about everything that we obsessed audiophiles drool over: imaging in all three dimensions, sound stage scale, mid range clarity, articulation, and transparency, bass extension, mid bass impact, upper frequency air and extension, blah, blah, blah !! Everything !!

My conclusion: Not one of these speakers was better in every single category than any of the others. Some had better midrange, others better imaging, others better midbase, some had better speed, etc.

So how much do I have to spend to get “better” and not just “different”. Based upon some additional auditioning, in my opinion, one really needs to go way north of $50,000, and even then, the “in every single category “ can be problematic. A friend has a pair of Magico Q5’s that are one of the very best speakers I have heard but even they won’t plunge the far depths of the low end.

At the most recent Axpona in Atlanta, I did get to hear the newest version of the Scaena and while I did not spend hours and hours listening, it seemed as though they might be a contender – but they are quite expensive. Importantly, they were in a room larger than any home environment listening room, so how much of what I heard was due to the fact that the room was so huge?

I have no answer but I’m curious about the observations others have on the concept of “better or just different” in regard to speakers.

Question #1 = my answer is DIFFERENT

Question #2 = ( how much of what I heard was due to the fact that the room was so huge ) my answer is at least 50% )
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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A friend has a pair of Magico Q5’s that are one of the very best speakers I have heard but even they won’t plunge the far depths of the low end.

I haven't heard Magicos, but if I had, and had come to this conclusion, the path would be pretty straightforward:

> Find the least expensive Magico that reaches the point at which bass loses directionality

> Buy a pair and supplement with subwoofers.

> Support with more power than they need

> Tune the room, placement and listening position accordingly

That's probably going to be small, stand-mount Magicos; relatively inexpensive in the context of this conversation, but if Magico is like most good speaker companies, within their volume and FR range the smaller speakers will be very similar to the big ones. And you're supplementing with 2 or 3 subs. Now, some folks here will not be satisfied with such a solution. They will speak of "scale" and "pressurizing the room." Some will even claim, while you rattle the walls, that it's not enough to reach realistic performance levels. While they're discussing all that, you'll be listening to music. Great imagining, great detail, speed, range, and all the volume you'll ever need.

Tim
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
I haven't heard Magicos, but if I had, and had come to this conclusion, the path would be pretty straightforward:

> Find the least expensive Magico that reaches the point at which bass loses directionality

> Buy a pair and supplement with subwoofers.

> Support with more power than they need

> Tune the room, placement and listening position accordingly

That's probably going to be small, stand-mount Magicos; relatively inexpensive in the context of this conversation, but if Magico is like most good speaker companies, within their volume and FR range the smaller speakers will be very similar to the big ones. And you're supplementing with 2 or 3 subs. Now, some folks here will not be satisfied with such a solution. They will speak of "scale" and "pressurizing the room." Some will even claim, while you rattle the walls, that it's not enough to reach realistic performance levels. While they're discussing all that, you'll be listening to music. Great imagining, great detail, speed, range, and all the volume you'll ever need.

Tim

My friend already owned the Q5's but did end up adding subs. He placed the Q5's where they imaged the best (but gave up even more low end) and placed the subs where they were the flattest. Viola!!! Spectacular!! He already had an awesome room.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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My friend already owned the Q5's but did end up adding subs. He placed the Q5's where they imaged the best (but gave up even more low end) and placed the subs where they were the flattest. Viola!!! Spectacular!! He already had an awesome room.

Gave up bass he didn't need (because he added the subs) to optimize imaging. Perfect. Expensive, but perfect.

Tim
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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(...) Find the least expensive Magico that reaches the point at which bass loses directionality (....) .

Tim

Tim,

Can you put a number in this frequency (and may be an attenuation factor in dB) or is this just a demonstration of subjectivity? ;)
 

andromedaaudio

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Jan 23, 2011
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I must agree on that the M 5 s dont plunge the depths , and i didnt find them extremely coherent either , meaning the roll over of mids to the bass , maybe its the rolled of front adding directionality ??,
I like the V3 s more , and that last bit of bass well i cant lose sleep over it .
I m gonna hear the Q 3 , S5 on deavialet in a couple of weeks time ,:D

This is just my impression dont take it to serious :)
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
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Tim,

Can you put a number in this frequency (and may be an attenuation factor in dB) or is this just a demonstration of subjectivity? ;)

I can't, personally, though I'm sure there are numbers out there and I'll bet it happens much higher than most suspect. Subjectively speaking.

Tim
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Gave up bass he didn't need (because he added the subs) to optimize imaging. Perfect. Expensive, but perfect.

Tim

I thought all serious audiophiles did that these days? It's not just a question of "giving up bass he didn't need"; without at least one sub supplementing even "full-range" mains you will have at least one significant null in the sub-200 Hz region unless your room is huge. And it's a rare room where the speaker placement for best imaging will match that for best bass response.
 

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