Better ....... or Just Different

Well I think you've done a great job summarizing one of the most vexing issues in high-end audio: Is it 'better' or just 'different'? I think it's a tough job because 'better' is by definition 'different' but 'different' is not always (?rarely) 'better'. I believe many people never develop your insight. Usually the knowledge is bought at a price of a few sideways moves. I suspect this is a major source of dissatisfaction in our hobby as people chase better, only to end up with different; poorer and not much wiser.

A few things have helped me get off the treadmill. First, I go to more live music. The more you hear, the better trained your ear to judge whether a component is 'better' or 'different'. Secondly, find friends who are like-minded, familiar with your system/taste, and most importantly, willing to give an honest assessment. (Hopefully gently!) It certainly helps to have friends who can act as 'BS' detectors. Next, in-home demos are mandatory. I know that this may limit the range of available equipment, but OTOH, you can't demo everything. I'd much rather narrow down my choices and hear them in my room, in my system, with my music. Finally, choose a component like its the last one you are ever allowed to purchase. That doesn't imply 'paralysis by analysis', rather it is meant to bring focus to decision making. I think the idea of constantly changing equipment makes it impossible to develop a long term reference. You will always have 'different' but IMO, rarely 'better'. Warren Buffett famously said "We believe that according the name ‘investors’ to institutions that trade actively is like calling someone who repeatedly engages in one-night stands a romantic." I believe the same applies to audio and if you buy the best you can afford, it only hurts once. However, the best you can afford does not necessarily imply the most expensive.

So to answer your specific question how much do you have to spend on speakers to get better and not just different? My answer was <$13k for Daedalus Ulysses speakers with all poly crossover option. But that only applies to my room, with my system, with my unique (some might say peculiar) tastes. I can say that other than my cartridge and tonearm, every other piece of equipment in my system was more expensive than the speakers. I am thrilled with the results after auditioning several speakers, many of which were more expensive than mine. Please note that in no way do I think that the Ulysses are the best for all systems. Mike Lavigne's Evolution Acoustics MM3's are 'better', especially in his SOTA room, but they'd 'worse' in my room which would be overwhelmed.

To wind up this lengthy harrangue, I would say you've done the heavy lifting by developing an understanding that you are looking for better, not just different. If you know what defines 'better' for you and have a good idea of your budget, you'll end up with a great long-term purchase. Don't sweat it and have fun!

The only speaker that got me off the treadmill are the EA MM3's. I have no desire to change....

I think the only loudspeaker

that will displace the treadmill is a full-range plasmatronics

I would just say that at this price point not considering the speakers as being part of a system, and looking at that as a single entity could be pretty disasterous. I remember at a well regarded dealer listening to big Wilson's, Maxx I think they were, hooked to top of the line mbl amps and front end. Disasterous, vicious sound! I said to the sales chappie, smiling blithely, seemingly oblivious to the auditory mess, "sound seems not quite right", and he responded, "Yes, the Wilson's need to be correctly set up first", and I silently thought, "Yes, in an open field about 2 miles from here" ...

Frank

audioguy said:

I have spent a fair amount of time in the last 4 or 5 years listening to different speakers, all (for the most part) in the sub $30,000 price range. The initial purpose was to make an educated decision for my own purchase but eventually to determine how much one had to spend to get a speaker that was better in every single category than any other speaker in this general price range (approximately $10,000 to $30,000). Based upon some additional auditioning, in my opinion, one really needs to go way north of $50,000, and even then, the “in every single category “ can be problematic.

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Trying to definitively best speakers in the 10K-30K range probably does mean one needs to go at least 2x the price. While some manufacturers price differently than others...i have observed that manufacturers price where they can optimize profit...which incorporates competition. So to absolutely clear the field of competition at 10K-30K, something a couple of price ranges higher is probably a fair observation.

Personally, i prefer to go back to older speakers s/hand. For the price i paid for my second hand X1/Grand Slamms there is absolutely nothing in the new category that touches them. for my pocket and my ears, the best of both worlds.

One of our East Bay BAAS members (Smokester) uses the Dunlavey SC IVa's . His greatest concern with them is that the drivers and crossovers were tuned with each other and there are no drop in replacements. As far as sound goes, the way he set them up, I would say you would have to spend a LOT more to do better, they are really great sounding speakers with his analog setup.

A lot has to do with room size and room/speaker tuning. In the old days, what you bought with expensive speakers was the ability to play very loud and still sound good, with more to be heard with increasing volume i.e. dynamic capability and the ability to image something resembling the live, dynamic event. It is probably much the same today. Big speaker, big room, big image, clean dynamics=expensive.

Is it necessary to spend boo-hoo money, if you are interested in only sound and not just Rolex status? I don't think so, but it is probably the infinite loop of irascible, wrathful and annoying fate that one might have to hear and/or own a variety of very expensive systems before acquiring the skill/expertise to set up a great sounding inexpensive system.

My interest is in a KIND of sound that I have acquired over years of listening as an audiophile, not always expensive but more than a bit elusive to achieve. Some things just are going to cost, and others, as usual, can be cheap if you know what to look for and how to look for it.

audioguy said:

<snip> I need to spend well above $50K which I have no interest in doing.

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Not a given ...

I have also heard many(most) of the speakers you mention in your original post... I have also reached very similar conclusions. One thing though, I am now more than ever convinced that subs (more than 2) are essential in obtaining the best bass in virtually all rooms, regardless of the intrincic low-bass capabilitties of the main speakers, reduced VLF is no longer a deal-breaker. Integration with mains is an issue, but IMO worthy of the time and efforts it seems to always take. I don't see myself going north of $50K (MSRP) for a speaker system either... As for $100K and above electronics to drive any speaker....

50G's for speakers? 100G's for components? Man, that's 3 years salary! What do you guys do for a living to even consider this? (crawls back into hole or hustles back to servant's quarters). LOL!

John72953 said:

50G's for speakers? 100G's for components? Man, that's 3 years salary! What do you guys do for a living to even consider this? (crawls back into hole or hustles back to servant's quarters). LOL!

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You have to find a sugar momma!

Bruce B said:

You have to find a sugar momma!

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I'm up for that! Bring it on! Know anyone?

Let's suppose you find that elusive speaker, will it make you enjoy your music more?

EDIT: I ask the question as I think those who are "gear audiophiles" approach upgrades in a very different manner than those who are "music audiophiles".

Hi Audioguy,

I don't like much the idea that a more expensive speaker is automatically better. What it might have is more potential. Potential is a tricky thing though. I moved my system from a room far from ideal into one that is very quiet and very well balanced. The change in room actually made things more difficult. I just turned the corner today. That's 10 months of setting up and dialing in everything from electricals, physical positioning and if you would believe it, the rake angle of the painting up front so it would reflect above and not at the listening position. The only real change in the equipment list was in cabling.

The question is, how far is anyone willing to go to maximize the potential? The true waste is to get something that costs an arm, a leg and perhaps a kidney on the black market and not pay attention to the little stuff. All the little stuff adds up. How can we truly enjoy a super speaker if we can't get rid of the hum from our turntables? In a quiet room and sensitive speakers, that little hum isn't little anymore! Things like this can be viciously maddening!!!!!! BUT we can get back what we put in. It took Steve months to dial in his subwoofers. It took Bruce to do a ground up build. It took Jeff to do the same. It took Mike some pretty big changes on his Rives designed room. It took me serious work on the electrical systems.

I guess what I'm saying is, no loudspeaker can be better if it isn't put in an environment right for it. The higher the potential for excellence, the greater the potential for disaster. I don't think spending three, four, five times the cost of existing speakers (which in your case are no slouches by any stretch) and expect it to be better in every respect from the get go is realistic. Like I said, what you have isn't some crap speaker from a big box store. I'm not surprised at all that you'd find different but not better. To get THAT, one has to be prepared to deal with what comes with the potentials of higher SPL capability, frequency extension, what will likely be broader dispersion patterns, higher resolution that will show the good (signal) with the bad (noise and distortion).

Just my 2 cents. Didn't mean to be preachy or anything. The last 10 months have been a roller coaster ride. It's paid off but it had it's hellish moments. I just don't want anybody to think that any of us who've gone this deep into things got results by purely throwing money at our problems because anybody that follows suit thinking that will be in for a lot of disappointment. I hate the idea of anybody burning out so this reply is not directed at you in particular but anybody who happens to read this thread who might be thinking of going full bore.

Peace!

Jack

Hi

Here I am speculating.

Let's take a speaker that has been all the rage in the Audiophile press: The Magico Q3. Many think it lacks bass, not having heard I can't comment on its bass performance, I can however say that this complaint came from a variety of quarters, I am willing to believe there are some truth to that. It seems to go low enough and even very low but there seems to have a lack of visceral impact to its bass ... Else it does many things extremely well, including dynamics shadings and sheer loudness... Combining this Q3 with say 3 Paradigm subwoofers (2 Sub1 and One Sub2) would have brought the system slightly overr $50K and provide the kind of bass that most main speakers this side of the Genesis 1 can't even dream of plus of course the smoothness of Low FR and nodes-mitigation advantages of the multi-sub approach .. There could be other combination, say a Magnepan 3.7 with the same subs for a little over 20 K or a CLX with the same 3 -subs ... Or The JL Audio Gotham and two others (lesser) JL Audio... Going for mains whose dynamics are good to excellent (and of course all the rest of enchilada) and use excellent subwoofers with my eyes on the cash-o-meter.. I think these days one can challenge the SOTA at less than $50k in real, street price, actually at around $20~25K, with the help of subwoofers.

I would like to see some of the reviewers on this list tackle such a project. For example would like to read what the CLX would become with such an arrangement.. CLX plus 3-subs or the MG 1.7 and 3.7 plus 3 -subs ... Little YG (KiPod?) with 3-subs... etc. There are of course some issues, limiting the amount of bass getting to the (some) mains could help them deal better with power compression but it's getting more complicated . Let's leave it there.. Full Range Mains plus 3-subs ... Total less than $50K.. What do you think Jeff ?

P.S. The Paradigm Sub 2 are $7500 MSRP each and the SUB2 $3500

audioguy said:

No one is more convinced than I about the value of a great room (and DRC as necessary) , great power, room treatments, etc to maximize the potential of any loudspeaker system. .

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I've always said the better the room, the less you'll need to spend on speakers/equipment.