Technics SP-10 MKII

mep · Apr 25, 2011

It's not that I'm fond of Magico speakers as I have never heard a pair. I just know they are super-expensive and people seem to love them and their most expensive models are made from billet aluminum and I'm using them for a rationale on why billet aluminum should be ok for use as a plinth. And no, I'm not going to use F.E.A and I don't have unlimited funds. I also have limited patience. I was born without patience and it has gotten worse since I have grown older so now I have negative patience. I wouldn't be willing to spend 4 years putting together a turntable. I don't want to spend 4 months on the plinth. I have already gone down 3 dirt roads with wood plinths and wasted several months in this project with nothing to show for it except aggravation. I just don't want to make this any harder than it needs to be. We are not talking rocket science here. I am surprised that you are telling me a 3 cms thick piece of billet aluminum would ring. That is over an 1" thick for us non-metric people.

kach22i · Apr 25, 2011

http://magico.net/Technology/Enclosures/Enclosures_03.php

It says here that they do use constrained layer dampening in their loudspeaker cabinet construction.

...............no single material can satisfy the property requirements.............

They move from MDF to phenolic resin to aluminum...................

EDIT, the top of the line M5 front baffle is aluminum, the internal framing of the whole series is also aluminum. I do not see an all metal speaker, am I missing it?

http://magico.net/Product/M5/M5_05.php

Scroll to page 5

mep · Apr 25, 2011

Kachi-I believe that Magico now makes at least 3 different models of speakers that have aluminum enclosures. The Q-3, the Q-5, and the replacement for the mini. I do see where they talk about using constrained layers for dampening. I need to think about this some more. I appreciate all of the tips. Thanks guys.

Mark

mep · Apr 30, 2011

For all of those who told me that using billet aluminum by itself to make a plinth for my SP-10 was not a good idea, I just want to tell you that you were all dead….right. I bought a 24” x 24” x 1 ¼” sheet of billet aluminum and it rings like a bell. It has to be damped using some form of constrained layer dampening. I think I have that part figured out, but TUC like, I can’t divulge the information because none of you here have signed a confidentiality agreement with me and my ideas are worth their weight in gold (or billet aluminum).

Seriously, there is a plan in the works. I will keep those that are interested updated as the project literally takes shape.

Mark

soundofvoid · Apr 30, 2011

I can only offer my experience in this...
I used sandwich construction of bronze/aluminum/ bronze separated or should i say "glued" together with thin silicone sheet.
All these were bolted together (with the same torque) making a very heavy and damped chassis...
You can also use something like "dynamat" or similar dampening sheet or even different metals.
This is a recipe that works pretty much always...

microstrip · Apr 30, 2011

People forget very fast, but the Swiss manufacturer Goldmund already used aluminum in their speakers more than twenty years ago. In order to damp it they used some special braces made using steel and brass, exploiting the different acoustic properties of these materials.

I quote their information "All the enclosures of the Goldmund Epilogue have been especially manufactured from brass and aluminium entirely, with internal bracing made of steel and a special design that carries the vibrations to the center Mechanical Grounding evacuation bar, a structure that dissipates resonance and thus cleans the sound right up. The all-metal construction also allows internal parts' service/maintenance/servicing without degrading any components and ensuring a longer life for your serious investment. "

BTW, this post could go also in another thread - the Epilogues cost over one quarter million.

garylkoh · Apr 30, 2011

... and I thought in the 1960's Lenco (also Swiss) used a aluminum/bronze/aluminum sandwich for the turntable platters.

History has a knack for repeating good ideas.

One of the difficulties in using dissimilar materials in a sandwich is that vibrations then damp very differently in the vertical vs horizontal planes. When the material is too dissimilar, the impedance between the two layers can be extremely high. Then, every two different materials will have a different sound.

You'll have to go into extensive FEA to determine the shape, size and place to place the damping, support, etc. Just as Golmund did in the Epilogues and Magico does in their new cabinet. You can't just throw together a metal cabinet and call it good. As Mark discovered, metal rings.

mep · Apr 30, 2011

microstrip said:
People forget very fast, but the Swiss manufacturer Goldmund already used aluminum in their speakers more than twenty years ago. In order to damp it they used some special braces made using steel and brass, exploiting the different acoustic properties of these materials.

I quote their information "All the enclosures of the Goldmund Epilogue have been especially manufactured from brass and aluminium entirely, with internal bracing made of steel and a special design that carries the vibrations to the center Mechanical Grounding evacuation bar, a structure that dissipates resonance and thus cleans the sound right up. The all-metal construction also allows internal parts' service/maintenance/servicing without degrading any components and ensuring a longer life for your serious investment. "

BTW, this post could go also in another thread - the Epilogues cost over one quarter million.

I believe that the first all-aluminum speakers were the Celestion SL-600s. They were actually made from aluminum honeycomb. Interestingly, you never see these speakers on the used market.

mep · Apr 30, 2011

garylkoh said:
... and I thought in the 1960's Lenco (also Swiss) used a aluminum/bronze/aluminum sandwich for the turntable platters.

History has a knack for repeating good ideas.

One of the difficulties in using dissimilar materials in a sandwich is that vibrations then damp very differently in the vertical vs horizontal planes. When the material is too dissimilar, the impedance between the two layers can be extremely high. Then, every two different materials will have a different sound.

You'll have to go into extensive FEA to determine the shape, size and place to place the damping, support, etc. Just as Golmund did in the Epilogues and Magico does in their new cabinet. You can't just throw together a metal cabinet and call it good. As Mark discovered, metal rings.

Gary-I would think that making an aluminum speaker enclosure and having it damped properly would be much more difficult than dampening a single piece of billet aluminum. A turntable and tonearm is not going to be throwing the amount of energy into the plinth that speakers mounted to an aluminum enclosure would. The aluminum only rings if you strike it with a hard object. I saw that by just sitting the piece of billet on a thin sheet of rubber that it damped the ringing completly. So, it will have to be damped, but it shouldn't be a big deal to make it as dead as it needs to be.

Mark

fas42 · Apr 30, 2011

A key word in this is viscoelastic: simply something that has both springy and shock absorbing qualities. A lot of the tweaky stuff uses material like this already, a classic is Sorbothane. Trying to do this exercise without having something with these qualities as part of the mix, like using contrained layer damping techniques, is going to make life hard for yourself ...

Frank

catastrofe · Sep 12, 2012

This thread died on the vine. . .was this project ever finished?

mep · Sep 12, 2012

Yes, the project was finished and I list the SP-10 MKII in my system. I did put up some photos but no one seemed too interested so I had Steve take them down. I think it came out great and I'm happy with it. I'm using the SME 312s arm and the Dynavector XV-1s cartridge. If you want to see some pictures, PM your email address and I will send you some.

hvbias · Jun 15, 2013

mep I'm curious what route you ended up going with the plinth. Do you feel the motor is powerful enough to support a heavy outer periphery ring clamp?

mep · Jun 15, 2013

hvbias said:
mep I'm curious what route you ended up going with the plinth. Do you feel the motor is powerful enough to support a heavy outer periphery ring clamp?

Technics is on record (no pun intended) that if you could mount 50 tonearms to the SP-10 MKII and track all of them at 15 grams each, the motor wouldn't flinch. If this motor can't carry a periphery clamp, I don't know what table could.

FrantzM · Jun 15, 2013

hvbias said:
mep I'm curious what route you ended up going with the plinth. Do you feel the motor is powerful enough to support a heavy outer periphery ring clamp?

not mep ut also an owner .. About the motor? yes .. Few TTS have such a powerful motor

findog · Dec 18, 2020

I have an SP-10mkii with A250 tonearm. Anyone have some recommendations for a MC cartridge?

Solypsa · Dec 18, 2020

Presume the EPA250 arm? Anyways effective mass is a bit light for the heavier / low compliance carts...

As for the subjective: a fairly stock SP10mk2 ( as good as it is ) is a bit dry/lean so a cart that can balance that out can be nice. I have one in layered birch ply plinth...

findog · Dec 18, 2020

Solypsa said:
Presume the EPA250 arm? Anyways effective mass is a bit light for the heavier / low compliance carts...

As for the subjective: a fairly stock SP10mk2 ( as good as it is ) is a bit dry/lean so a cart that can balance that out can be nice. I have one in layered birch ply plinth...

Yes, 250 arm on 500 base. What cartridge do use?

Solypsa · Dec 18, 2020

I have used a number. My Sp10mk2 lives with an FR64S arm, so a higher mass arm. On that arm a fav is an old ( matching) FR7. One of the Sensitive Sound carts I sell that I like a lot on this table /arm is the Y12S Verona which is a somewhat lush presentation.

Back to your arm the Sensitive Sound Art Dark is a good fit ( but again caveat I sell this cart). Others to look at would be Etsuro Urushi and Van Den Hul ( the latter of which uses that arm iirc )...

Direct Drive · Dec 19, 2020

Mine is mounted on layered birch ply plinth about 30kg in all with FR64x and either AT33PTG/II or AT33EV and they work really well. In fact surprisingly well.

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