My next Phonostage ? Boulder 2008 or CH Precision P1 or?

awsmone

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This is most curious. My other phono, like Tang, is tubed the EMT, the P1 is more detailed and when past the 50 hour mark was also richer and fuller (I use Tele 803s not the stock JJ 803s) from the midrange down. The EMT does win on adjustability though it loses on noise. That is a big deal for me and my very quiet room. Being quieter than any phono stage I have ever owned, it is also sounds more dynamic. I wonder if the veiling has to do with the internal impedance of his carts. I don't own any carts with high internal impedances so they all work very well with the current drive. I suppose that for those that have multiple high impedance carts on multiple arms, having two current drive inputs and one voltage input wouldn't make sense. I also wonder about phonocables. I use Odin on my graham and the captured cables on my 4-Point and my SAT. Lastly I wonder about the voltage input limits of his preamp. The P1's output is similar to top end digital at 6 as opposed to the usual 1 or 2. Over driving an input does indeed cause what can be described as veiling but is actually signal compression.

An excellent summary

Current input photos work better with low impedance cartridges
There is also the dramatic change of not having a loading resistor in the pathway

They do produce big outputs as cartridges are current sources rather than voltage sources

My experience over a length period with current mode is it is both more detailed dynamic, less coloured and more natural

I can only presume the issue lies elsewhere than the phonostage

Having said this, doesn’t mean a given listener will prefer it to something else, I have a highly modified tube phono, and there I some things I really like about it to my solid state phonos
 

Tango

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This is most curious. My other phono, like Tang, is tubed the EMT, the P1 is more detailed and when past the 50 hour mark was also richer and fuller (I use Tele 803s not the stock JJ 803s) from the midrange down. The EMT does win on adjustability though it loses on noise. That is a big deal for me and my very quiet room. Being quieter than any phono stage I have ever owned, it is also sounds more dynamic. I wonder if the veiling has to do with the internal impedance of his carts. I don't own any carts with high internal impedances so they all work very well..

The P1 is richer and fuller. Yes could be. But the EMT is super firm on its body no cellulite. The P1 is more quiet. Yes probably as quiet as digital. But the EMT is so darn quiet without being black and my speakers are 107db. The P1 is more dynamic. Well..if any of my three phono are more dynamic than they are now I would be having a heart attack listening to music. Talk about flexibility, I cant imagine any cart or eq curve that cant be played with P1. The P1 is also super refine not a bit raw like EMT. While Allnic 5000 sounds beautiful unlike EMT. (What does Allnic have to do here :confused:) I can go on and on. In the end its is up to what is your cup of coffee :D.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

bonzo75

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Allnic stock recti is a bit pretty sounding, bit rolling rectis takes away that prettiness. I don't like that pretty sound which some Kondo models also have, but thankfully almost everyone I have been to to listen to Allnic had their recti rolled or let me roll it for the listening
 

Tango

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Sorry Ked. No chance for you to hear P1+X1 vs EMT. They are going to a new home with Continuum Caliburn.

Tang :)
 

shakti

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comparing the P1 to other phonoPres is not that easy, as MC1, MC2 versus MC3 are different concepts. MC1 and MC2 are current gain stages. They like to be paired with MC Carts of low DC resistance (no concrete date from CHP here, but usually a current gain stage works best below 30ohm DC coil resistance, still very good below 40 ohm, then it starts to get critical. The MC3 input is a voltage gain stage and you can choose nearly every impedance to load the Cartridge.

Depending on the Cart, the inputs do sound different and need to be chosen by cart.

Most of my carts like MC1 and MC2, but some need MC3

So I can understand , that different users give to the P1 a different "warm" or "cold" charakter, depending on the Cart and the input choose.
As the P1 is so flexible, it is possible to get the best out of a cartridge.

The Boulder in comparison is much harder to adjust , soldering is not a very comfortable way to do...
 

bazelio

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I don't quite understand. You seem to be saying that the CH P1 is adding harmonics but it is not clear to me that you have heard it in a system in which you can isolate the contribution of this phono stage. Have you heard the CH P1 and can you be more specific about your experience with it?

Sorry you're confused, Peter. As I said, it's an extrapolation from what I've been told (not heard) by people on this forum and elsewhere who have the experience. I'm trying to decide if P1 is a contender for me or not - auditioning it isn't easy to do. The P1 veil that some folks have described is the most concerning. Ian and I spoke out of the thread, which was also helpful.
 

JackD201

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The P1 is richer and fuller. Yes could be. But the EMT is super firm on its body no cellulite. The P1 is more quiet. Yes probably as quiet as digital. But the EMT is so darn quiet without being black and my speakers are 107db. The P1 is more dynamic. Well..if any of my three phono are more dynamic than they are now I would be having a heart attack listening to music. Talk about flexibility, I cant imagine any cart or eq curve that cant be played with P1. The P1 is also super refine not a bit raw like EMT. While Allnic 5000 sounds beautiful unlike EMT. (What does Allnic have to do here :confused:) I can go on and on. In the end its is up to what is your cup of coffee :D.

Kind regards,
Tang

Over the years I've listened to the videos of your system. I noticed that you really enjoy jazz and soloist classical pieces. Yes I think these very direct forms of expression lend themselves to being best served a little raw. I think I get where you're coming from. That rawness does elicit stronger reactions from me with that kind of music.
 

PeterA

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Sorry you're confused, Peter. As I said, it's an extrapolation from what I've been told (not heard) by people on this forum and elsewhere who have the experience. I'm trying to decide if P1 is a contender for me or not - auditioning it isn't easy to do. The P1 veil that some folks have described is the most concerning. Ian and I spoke out of the thread, which was also helpful.

I understand now. Thank you baselio. You have not actually heard the unit yourself. You are assuming a particular sonic attribute based on what others have told you and describing the CH as "veiled" and "adding harmonics". I have heard the CH a few times now in a familiar system and have not been able to isolate that particular attribute based on my listening.
 

bazelio

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I understand now. Thank you baselio. You have not actually heard the unit yourself. You are assuming a particular sonic attribute based on what others have told you and describing the CH as "veiled" and "adding harmonics". I have heard the CH a few times now in a familiar system and have not been able to isolate that particular attribute based on my listening.

One owner did use the word "veiled" himself and described a lack of clarity in direct comparison to other units when describing the P1 to me. An ex-CH dealer described the harmonic content of P1 being "tube-like". I'm assuming the two are causally related. And in these cases, those folks did know they isolated those particular attributes to the P1 unit itself relative to other phono stages. But I don't quite know what to make of it due to conflicting reports from yet other owners. I assume it's a matter of exposure and experience. I.e. you don't know what you don't know, whereas in a few cases some folks were actually able to zero in on particular attributes.

Based on your listening, do you think you reasonably could have isolated these attributes directly to the P1? Did you make any direct comparisons to other phono stages? Or why did you mention that?
 
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bonzo75

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One owner did use the word "veiled" himself and described a lack of clarity in direct comparison to other units when describing the P1 to me. An ex-CH dealer described the harmonic content of P1 being "tube-like". I'm assuming the two are causally related. And in these cases, those folks did know they isolated those particular attributes to the P1 unit itself relative to other phono stages. But I don't quite know what to make of it due to conflicting reports from yet other owners. I assume it's a matter of exposure and experience. I.e. you don't know what you don't know, whereas in a few cases some folks were actually able to zero in on particular attributes.

Based on your listening, do you think you reasonably could have isolated these attributes directly to the P1? Did you make any direct comparisons to other phono stages? Or why did you mention that?

If you are looking at the Dart model 2 as an amp, why don't you just put together a Dart system?
 

PeterA

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One owner did use the word "veiled" himself and described a lack of clarity in direct comparison to other units when describing the P1 to me. An ex-CH dealer described the harmonic content of P1 being "tube-like". I'm assuming the two are causally related. And in these cases, those folks did know they isolated those particular attributes to the P1 unit itself relative to other phono stages. But I don't quite know what to make of it due to conflicting reports from yet other owners. I assume it's a matter of exposure and experience. I.e. you don't know what you don't know, whereas in a few cases some folks were actually able to zero in on particular attributes.

Based on your listening, do you think you reasonably could have isolated these attributes directly to the P1? Did you make any direct comparisons to other phono stages? Or why did you mention that?

I have heard three or four different phono stages in that system. The system is extremely revealing. However, I did not do any direct comparisons to other phono stages at the same time. I spent five hours with the CH phono just the other day doing direct comparisons in different combinations between two preamps and two cartridges. The phono just did not seem to veil over anything, and I was clearly able to hear differences between the other four components in different combinations with the signal always going through the CH.

My point is that I heard this with my own ears to form an opinion in which I am confident. You are relying on hearsay from others which you admit is inconsistent. I understand that the phono may be difficult for you to audition in person, and perhaps the best you can do is to talk to other owners. My objection is that you are sharing an opinion, a negative one (veiled, creates harmonics, etc) and sharing it as though you heard these yourself and they are attributes of this particular phono stage. You do not know that, from you later admission that you have not hear it for yourself. I just asked for clarity, so that I could understand on what you based your comments. I understand now. Thank you.
 

bazelio

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I have heard three or four different phono stages in that system. The system is extremely revealing. However, I did not do any direct comparisons to other phono stages at the same time. I spent five hours with the CH phono just the other day doing direct comparisons in different combinations between two preamps and two cartridges. The phono just did not seem to veil over anything, and I was clearly able to hear differences between the other four components in different combinations with the signal always going through the CH.

My point is that I heard this with my own ears to form an opinion in which I am confident. You are relying on hearsay from others which you admit is inconsistent. I understand that the phono may be difficult for you to audition in person, and perhaps the best you can do is to talk to other owners. My objection is that you are sharing an opinion, a negative one (veiled, creates harmonics, etc) and sharing it as though you heard these yourself and they are attributes of this particular phono stage. You do not know that, from you later admission that you have not hear it for yourself. I just asked for clarity, so that I could understand on what you based your comments. I understand now. Thank you.

Thanks for sharing your impressions. Feel free to dismiss and ignore my "hearsay", but I feel this has to be a place where all opinions (first hand or otherwise) are allowed and discussed openly. I do not hold an opinion that all gear sounds good, just "different". I'm not saying you do, but I am saying there's a pattern among some Boston area members with regards to unfavorable opinions of gear that appears in their signatures. So I (and others as well by the way) feel there is a often bias in play, and nearly always an attempt to dismiss (e.g. "hearsay") rather than a true willingness to discuss differences of opinion openly and unemotionally. In this case, I have stated that I've got specific concerns "based on descriptions" because I'm trying to make a purchase decision and have not implied anything to the contrary. If I'm going to get balanced feedback, the best way to do so is to simply raise these concerns and try to validate them one way or the other, *especially* given conflicting reports. I see no reason to tiptoe. And I try to be open and honest about the "good and the bad" with regards to gear that I've heard and gear that I own, as well. Ian and I had a good discussion of the P1 offline and had some common ground, both of us being familiar with the Ypsilon phono. Ian was able to describe its resolution capability vs the P1, which was very useful. I'd have no problem doing so openly either, but felt it best not to clutter the thread which unfortunately we're doing now.
 

shakti

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Yesterday I had the opportunity to listen to the combination of VTL 7.5 Preamplifier and CHP P1.

From Cartridge to power amp all XLR.

To my surprise , this was a complete mismatch. I never heard the P1 that "thin" and uncomplete.
The tonal balance was to the mids and highs, like wrong impedance match.

So I changed to the MC3 input to adjust impedance manually.
That was better, but I would say, only , because we could fine tune it with an better matching impedance.

Still, the P1 was playing without the known substance, more like a typical solid stage phonopre with a lot of resolution and less music.

It was very much unenjoyable, so after 30 minutes we stopped that experiment.
standard PhonoPre with the VTL 7.5 is the BAT Balanced Audio Technologie VK-12SE, playing very nice.
I also heard other Phonostages on the VTL 7.5 (all tubes), no problem.

The input impedance of the VTL 7.5 is similar to my Koda K10, so that cannot be the reason for the mismatch.

Does anyone has paired the CHP P1 phono stage with a Tube PreAmp and can share his experience ?

Thanx
 

bonzo75

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Well Tang didn't like his with the Ayon conquistador pre.
 

Tango

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Well Tang didn't like his with the Ayon conquistador pre.

You wrote about your listening impression in my room on day 2 and day 3. That was pretty much like the difference between the P1 and my other tube phonos. The drive, the energy, the things that make you stand up and do conductor rigorous hand gesture while playing music just wasnt there with the P1. Dont know why. But I tried every config of P1 in my system. So I cut loss. MadFloyd seems to like it in his tube system though.

Tang
 

Reinhard

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The input impedance of the VTL 7.5 is similar to my Koda K10, so that cannot be the reason for the mismatch.

Input impedance of the Koda K10 is 50K single ended. No Number for the balanced Input. As he uses an Input transformer the impedance will be much lower, under 10K I think.
 

shakti

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The input impedance of the VTL 7.5 is similar to my Koda K10, so that cannot be the reason for the mismatch.

Input impedance of the Koda K10 is 50K single ended. No Number for the balanced Input. As he uses an Input transformer the impedance will be much lower, under 10K I think.

I am not enough electrical engineer to deeply analyze and judge , but in that set up
(VTL 7.5, MK 33h, Duntech Souvereign)
the CHP P1 was not a good mate.
On my Koda K10 I liked the P1 a lot.
 

Bodhi

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If I were buying a high end phono stage today, I would go for the APL Hifi PHS-SR which is a solid state phono stage that sounds natural and life-like & has excellent build quality. I'm loving their gear.
 
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JackD201

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Alex makes phono stages now? Cool :)
 

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