Fraud on Audiogon

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
3,591
2,576
1,860
Sydney
I was browsing through Audiogon when I saw a Thales Simplicity II for a really good price. Thought I would have a look and the guy was selling my Thales Simplicity II on my TW Raven !! WTF!!

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis93885-thales-simplicity-2-amazing-tonearms

Anyway, I have reported it to Audiogon and sent the guy a public shaming question to not buy from this criminal.

very sad with so much fraud around these days.

Screenshot (1).jpg
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,778
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Shane - good catch - there's a chance he may be using your photo to sell his own arm. It's a no-no. Nowadays attribution is pretty shallow on the Web. I had a guy re-use my text from an ARC phono stage I sold in order to sell his own. Sent him a private note and he wrote his own text.
 

BruceD

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Dec 13, 2013
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Damn odd alright--why jeopardise 612 Positive f/backs for an easily discredited scam?

Long shot--- does he have one of the arms and cannot -or be bothered to mount, take pics/etc?

I agree puzzling--if it's not too confidential an outcome --maybe lets know what Tammy says

Good sleuthing though:cool:!!

BruceD
 

Tango

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Mar 12, 2017
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gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
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In Italy market link are full of this Freud
Offer a lot of things at 1/5 of his cost
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
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Utah
Damn odd alright--why jeopardise 612 Positive f/backs for an easily discredited scam?

Long shot--- does he have one of the arms and cannot -or be bothered to mount, take pics/etc?

I agree puzzling--if it's not too confidential an outcome --maybe lets know what Tammy says

Good sleuthing though:cool:!!

BruceD

The account could have been hijacked I've seen it happen before on both A'gon and Ebay.

david
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
The criminal audiophile simply used a picture of the arm already mounted on a beautiful looking turntable. It's not like he went to the bank and used a revolver with a mask to make a holdup.

We are very intimate and possessive of our pictures, videos, audio gear, etc., so it hurts when someone uses one of our photos that we posted on the internet to sell something that is in that photo, it means we take beautiful shots and someone else sees that and uses it.

It's a terrible crime of the heart, like inviting someone you met on the internet to dine @ a restaurant and disappear @ the end of the meal; not quite because here the nice lady is left with the bill, between say $100 and $200. In this case here @ Audiogon, nobody is left with a bill, only a photo that was used by someone else to sell his tonearm. If it would be me, in true humor, anyone who uses pictures posted on the internet, videos too, should be charged, fined and sent to jail.

But in all seriousness, everything that is on the internet...pictures, YouTube videos, public domain, social websites, non- private texts, anything for everyone to see, ...like comic cartoons, and beautiful looking audio gear, nice cars, nice furniture, movie trailers, audio cables, gorgeous looking turntables, splendid countryside photographs, majestic mountains and trees, nice sunsets over the ocean, bald eagles, football teams, Tesla cars and articles, stock exchange building, etc., should be ok to share what is already shared.

The laws in each country I don't know, they're all different.
I put myself in the shoes of other people and it's complex when there are 7.65 billion of us living on the same planet.

Was the picture posted on a public domain or a very private and secured website with protection activated and anti-jacking security protocol feature?

What is the law and what charge and sentence can be imposed in a case like this here?
Is it a breach, a criminal act, a non-permitted action, what pain is inflicted to another person or group of people. Is it like lying constantly from our leaders or worst?

What is the rule of decency; is it like using pictures of the war in Vietnam to sell some artillery, pictures of a turntable to sell a tonearm?

I am smiling a little because I see no true harm in this. But I do respect other's ideas and concepts and all that human jazz.

Is it an audio business or an audio violation, an emotional discomfort or an outrage. Is it only vapor and nobody gets hurt. Did it cost.
 
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dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,411
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1,410
One should ALWAYS use a picture of the actual item they are selling.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Yes, that's the common and general idea. If you go on eBay (or Audiogon), the items for sale are not necessarily taken by the salespeople.

Anyway, in this particular one here; XV-1 (Shane) is not happy that the tonearm for sale is the one from his picture. I respect that.
Me, if someone was selling a nice turntable, and that he was using a picture of my own turntable, the same exact model as mine, but somehow he/she decided to use my tt photograph for whatever reason, I wouldn't sweat much about it. Sure, the sales person could use his phone and take his own picture, but perhaps he has a bad camera on his phone, or is a lousy cameraman, or ... whatever other reason, and there's a picture he really like posted somewhere in the internet, that has the same exact model tonearm and already installed on a nice looking turntable. What is the level of probability, and the average percentage of people who wouldn't use that photograph?

Yes, I too agree with you that using your one picture is best practice.
But on the other hand I don't see a big deal using one from another place.
It's only a picture of an object, without names, without people.
Someone might feel offended, privately violated, ...I've seen this many times before where people are deleting all their pictures because one person uses one or few of them to share somewhere else.

There used to be a time when and if you share a link from another website you got banned.
Are articles on the internet private to the point that you cannot link them say on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, Google, Stereophile blog?

If we want real privacy in life then why are we publishing newspapers, having several social networks, photography websites, audio magazines with reviews, why are we writing books, making films, showing our sound systems, our cars, our watch collection, our garden of vegetables, our front yard, our nice looking body, our girlfriend, ... why not stored our real life in locked vaults, like in the Watergate buildings?

If we are truly valuing out privacy why are we on the internet and on various public forums and social medias, why are we reading the news every day on CNN and FOX and CBC and MNSBC and Aljazira, and watching football games on TV?
I know, it's not really that, it's only a question of how each person feels about it. It's a personal feeling, and nobody else can own our own feeling. They can steel our photographs but they cannot steal the music that animates us inside, they cannot steal our Blues. You can take my guitar, my car, my home, but you can't take my Blues - Doug Macleod.
Every country is different when it comes to privacy, patent, property, copyright, pictures, videos, movies, Hollywood boulevard with stars on the boardwalk, nice fashion photographs on Instagram, box of chocolates, iPads, and everything.

Can you sue someone who used XV-1's photograph of his turntable and posted it on Audiogon for selling a tonearm that is the same model one? In America suing people for everything and anything is one of the favorite pastimes. In this particular case here, should he take legal action and ask for compensation?
The emotional pain is worth how much, one million dollars? Some lawyers would say yes. Lol

See, everything we own nobody wants anyone to share with no one.
I don't want anyone touching my boat or ...
I don't want anyone using a picture of my dog for selling the same model dog.

There's a balance, and 7.65 billion of them; we just have to find the right one that fits us best.
 
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dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,411
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To me this isn’t about privacy. If you use another picture you are misleading the buyer since the actual item could look slightly different or have a defect that is missed.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,411
2,794
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Then the buyer can ask questions.

I think XV-1 did ok to tell Audiogon about it.

I never ask the seller if I am getting what’s in the picture. That should be an assumption.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Assumptions are not always what's expected; we all know that, and in audio like anything else.
I am the best person from my town, I don't assume everyone else from my town to be the best as I am. I'm way too smart to live by this assumption.

:b

* It's only a photograph, not the end of the world.
Everything that could have been done was done; Audiogon was notified.
What Audiogon is going to do about it is something I'm sure they experienced thousands of times before. Sending a swat team to the sales person? Lol I don't think so; just tell the guy to take a pic with his iPhone next time, voilà.
_____

Bonus: https://me.me/i/choose-not-to-be-harmed-and-you-wont-feel-harmed-12383106

https://www.businessinsider.com/lessons-from-marcus-aurelius-2016-2
 
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dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,411
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Maybe I am in the minority but I think most people think that the picture is for the item for sale.

Others can chime in if they think I am wrong.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
The picture is not for sale, the tonearm in the picture is. The picture is only the messenger.
Yes the sales person @ Audiogon should have mentioned that the tonearm he is selling looks exactly like in the one from the picture which is not his picture but from someone's else picture of his turntable mounted with that exact same tonearm. Audiogon might exactly tell the sales person that, to add this important distinction. Or, to take a picture of his own of the tonearm in the box or whatever. Then the interested buyer(s) can ask for more pictures if he/they wish.

Audiogon they run their own show with advertised sales from the members and purchased items from the members. They have their own rules, and I'm sure they work with their members in the best interest of all parties. Audiogon knows best, right behind the sales people and the customers.

Can Audiogon know everything, no. So it's a team work, and XV-1 did already the best he could do in this particular case. So now it's in the Audiogon's hands. There is nothing we can do us, but talk about sharing our thoughts.

Today is a beautiful day, Saturday, most WBF members are cruising the beautiful scenic drives on the west coast and east cost with their wives in newly cleaned and waxed cars...from Ferrari to Porsche to Jeep to SUV to Jaguar to Tesla to AMG to Mercedes Benz to Toyota to Honda to Ford to GMC to Dodge to Chrysler to Corvette to Impala to Mustang to Citroen to ...
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
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Portugal
Maybe I am in the minority but I think most people think that the picture is for the item for sale.

Others can chime in if they think I am wrong.

Many serious sellers put a picture that is taken from catalogues - IMHO it is buyer responsibility to ask for more detailed pictures of the real item, asking for particular details such as serial numbers.

Sometimes the advertisement photos lack resolution and quality, they are there just for illustrative purposes.
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
3,591
2,576
1,860
Sydney
When selling anything second hand, the pictures representing what is being sold must be the actual photos, unless stated otherwise in the add. This clearly was not the case and its fraud - plain and simple.

I reported the listing to Audiogon and wrote a nice public question calling the gut out. I wake up this morning and the public question is gone and zero feedback from audiogon. I have now emailed audiogon and again put a public question on the ad.

latraviata has now changed his photo - another fraud photo? Does he even have a Thales tonearm for sale? who knows.

Audiogon not answering my report or email just about says it all about audiogon.

cheers
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
We already knew that from Audiogon; we have threads here @ WBF where we have discussed in the past how much Audiogon cares...they don't, plain and simple.

* The sales person now changed the picture/photo due to your action, good.
What else is there, nothing. It's a waste of precious time wondering on the origin of that new photograph.
Best's just to move on and share new music we discover each and every day.

Share the passion, share the music, listen to the new and old music under a new set of ears and gear. ...Or the same good old set of ears and gear but under a new light...new music that speaks to the soul.
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
3,591
2,576
1,860
Sydney
We already knew that from Audiogon; we have threads here @ WBF where we have discussed in the past how much Audiogon cares...they don't, plain and simple.

* The sales person now changed the picture/photo due to your action, good.
What else is there, nothing. It's a waste of precious time wondering on the origin of that new photograph.
Best's just to move on and share new music we discover each and every day.

Share the passion, share the music, listen to the new and old music under a new set of ears and gear. ...Or the same good old set of ears and gear but under a new light...new music that speaks to the soul.

North star. This seller is a fraud, plain and simple. The condition of the so called tonearm is 10/10. He is now using another image from the internet.
http://www.hxoseikona.gr/nea/4788-thales-ttt-compact-ii-with-simplicity-ii-pagkosmia-prwth.html

This is only to warn potential buyers to stay away from this guy.

Me. I don't care if anyone uses my wonderful photos of my gear - as you said, it's in the public domain. That's why my kok shots are not posted on the internet ;) that's a joke btw

However, no-one can use someone else's photos to misrepresent something they are selling.
 

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