And then there were three...

microstrip · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
First Steve W, then Tang, now me.

I mean turning off my subs. I'm not 100% convinced I won't go back, but I'm not majorly missing them. And FWIW, the upsides are considerable atm.

So Steve and Tang, it's catching.

Marc,

Sorry to spoil you fun, but after optimum placement and much experimentation with port positioning the XLF's had great bass and I could perfectly survive without subs. But when I added a pair of JLAudio F113v2 with the CR-1 controller the overall performance improved. I should stress that I found the CR-1 controller fundamental in the set - up. I never managed to integrate just the subs with the integrated filters without it.

BTW, I could only tune the sub using a few initial measurements - otherwise just listening would drive me in wrong direction. Initial setup is too dependent on specific recordings to be carried by listening.

BTW2 - I am not a patient man for audio. I can not consider carrying months or years to fine tune something. After two or three weeks I give up if it does not persuade me! And I want to go on listening and to have fun doing it ...

BTW3 - the answer depends a lot on the music we mainly listen. I would not need subs to listen to rock or country music.

microstrip · Sep 6, 2018

PeterA said:
Marc,

In my opinion, if someone owns full range speakers and does not like the way the bass sounds, there are four possible reasons:

1. The speakers are not optimally set up in the room or the listening seat is not located in the general area for smoothest bass response.

2. The speaker/room match is not optimal. The room may simply not be able to handle the low frequencies that that particular speaker can produce. Acoustic treatment may help.

3. The speakers are not designed properly.

4. The owner did not buy speakers that match his set of preferences.

To suggest that all full range speakers be designed with adjustable low frequencies is overlooking the other possibilities which I mentioned above. You, Steve W., and Tang have very different conditions and to suggest that there is some trend toward better sound by turning off subs is a bit strange. I can see why large sub systems like Mike's towers have user adjustability built in to fine tune them to a customer's room. JL Audio, Magico S and Q subs and others have these too because the designer wants them to be flexible enough to properly blend in with the main speakers. But in these cases, the speaker/room (with treatment) match must also be appropriate.

A 3 or 4-way speaker is a completely different thing. In these designs, I presume the designer tried to integrate the drivers as well as he possibly could. It is then left to the customer to properly locate the listening seat and to position the speakers for the best overall sound, assuming the room is appropriate in the first place.

Have you experimented much with your speaker and or listening seat locations for smoothest/best bass response? It seems odd that after all of your recent efforts with system improvements, isolation, power, room, that you do not seem satisfied with the bass of your Zu speakers. When did you first start noticing these issues?

I would add speaker / amplifier system matching as a very important aspect. Also many times we do not like the bass because something is wrong elsewhere in the medium - I must recognize it was something that I became aware in a exchange of post with Ethan Winner in WBF many years ago. Peter Walker of Quad also referred several times the need to balance treble with bass.

ddk · Sep 6, 2018

Actually there are more than 3 but not everyone's posting. Tang was the quickest one among you to hear the negative effects of subs, it took Steve a couple of years and my repetitive nagging for him to finally dump them. The problem isn't with subs but the type of sub which is the problem in your cases, been saying it forever that active subs with digital xovers aren't meant for music and will never integrate in systems with tube amplification. The other thing one needs to consider is the room size and for suitable subs, doing things properly with correct subs you can enhance a system when it's needed.

david

Steve Williams · Sep 6, 2018

ddk said:
Actually there are more than 3 but not everyone's posting. Tang was the quickest one among you to hear the negative effects of subs, it took Steve a couple of years and my repetitive nagging for him to finally dump them. The problem isn't with subs but the type of sub which is the problem in your cases, been saying it forever that active subs with digital xovers aren't meant for music and will never integrate in systems with tube amplification. The other thing one needs to consider is the room size and for suitable subs, doing things properly with correct subs you can enhance a system when it's needed.

dav

I've never looked back since removing them David

My deep bass is so much better now

Old habits die hard and it took me a while to get to that point but happy that I did

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Dave, your words ring true.

My options are
1- kick back and relax (very likely LOL) - stick as is, or reintroduce those subs, and work harder at integration.
2- upgraded version of my current spkrs, but w the option of powering on-board subs w outboard Class A/AB amp (Zu will provide this option).
3- go for dedicated outboard non Zu Class A/AB subs.
4- upgrade to full range horns like Haigner Alpha or GammaHorns where I can single amp the whole lot w my Class A Nat 211s
5- go left field w Apogee Duettas and get away w my current tubes powering all the ribbons (certainly if I subdivide my room from 38-48' deep to 23' deep, halving the floor area and volume), or bite the bullet and run something like Class A/AB Boulder or Gryphon or bespoke hybrid amp a member here is considering making, for Duettas or Scintillas.

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2018

The scintilla are way superior to the Haighner but since you have heard neither we can discuss

microstrip · Sep 6, 2018

ddk said:
Actually there are more than 3 but not everyone's posting. Tang was the quickest one among you to hear the negative effects of subs, it took Steve a couple of years and my repetitive nagging for him to finally dump them. The problem isn't with subs but the type of sub which is the problem in your cases, been saying it forever that active subs with digital xovers aren't meant for music and will never integrate in systems with tube amplification. The other thing one needs to consider is the room size and for suitable subs, doing things properly with correct subs you can enhance a system when it's needed.

david

I would risk saying that you are a very persuasive person ...

But you have a strong point in the matching between main electronics and subs - the best results I got with the JL Audio subs were using SS amplifiers.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Ked, I really wanted this thread to be about others who've disengaged their subs, or those who manage to make full range behemoths w no deep bass adjustability work in their rooms.

I'm trying not to make this another thinking out loud/wishlist thread about myself.

And for the record, I know someone who has heard Haigners and Scintillas and would take the former. You know what they say about opinions.

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2018

Yes but depends which scintillas he heard, as I have heard three and didn't like two. So these random lack of specifics don't help

ddk · Sep 6, 2018

microstrip said:
I would risk saying that you are a very persuasive person ...

But you have a strong point in the matching between main electronics and subs - the best results I got with the JL Audio subs were using SS amplifiers.

I don't twist anyone's arms just let them listen and come to their own conclusions

!

david

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

I'm moving on Ked, your views on Scintillas v Haigners is irrelevant to this thread.

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
I'm moving on Ked, your views on Scintillas v Haigners is irrelevant to this thread.

You brought it up, I didn't. You won't move on you will post the same things in another thread

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Your data points of no interest to me. I mentioned examples of places to go where subs integration might be less of an issue. I'm not aiming to then discuss those particular makes, just the concept of the choices.

JackD201 · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Dave, your words ring true.

My options are
1- kick back and relax (very likely LOL) - stick as is, or reintroduce those subs, and work harder at integration.
2- upgraded version of my current spkrs, but w the option of powering on-board subs w outboard Class A/AB amp (Zu will provide this option).
3- go for dedicated outboard non Zu Class A/AB subs.
4- upgrade to full range horns like Haigner Alpha or GammaHorns where I can single amp the whole lot w my Class A Nat 211s
5- go left field w Apogee Duettas and get away w my current tubes powering all the ribbons (certainly if I subdivide my room from 38-48' deep to 23' deep, halving the floor area and volume), or bite the bullet and run something like Class A/AB Boulder or Gryphon or bespoke hybrid amp a member here is considering making, for Duettas or Scintillas.

Hi Marc

Before you pull your wallet out, may I suggest that you try the Zus with their stock spikes and off the symposiums. One of the reasons downfiring subwoofers are not that popular is that their performance can be quite variable due to two factors. The first is the gap between the driver and the floor and the second is the material of the floor itself. I'm pretty sure they were not designed for a surface as springy as an aluminum and foam sandwich which wouldn't be a potential problem for a speaker without a downfiring driver. I think it would be a worthwhile experiment to return to how the speakers were originally intended to be used. Drop me a PM if you decide to give it a go and do let me know how it might turn out. I don't scan posts as much as I used to since I went back to my old job.

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2018

JackD201 said:
Hi Marc

Before you pull your wallet out, may I suggest that you try the Zus with their stock spikes and off the symposiums. One of the reasons downfiring subwoofers are not that popular is that their performance can be quite variable due to two factors. The first is the gap between the driver and the floor and the second is the material of the floor itself. I'm pretty sure they were not designed for a surface as springy as an aluminum and foam sandwich which wouldn't be a potential problem for a speaker without a downfiring driver. I think it would be a worthwhile experiment to return to how the speakers were originally intended to be used. Drop me a PM if you decide to give it a go and do let me know how it might turn out. I don't scan posts as much as I used to since I went back to my old job.

Yes with my downward firing summits I got a big uptick raising them. What's under matters. Granite, marble and carpet were bad...i liked Auralex.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Jack, you've obviously been paying attention to my system evolution, thanks.

Yes, I have been running my Zus on Symposium Svelte Shelves, 0.75" gap. Initially also on Rollerblocks, but now spiked again.

I am going to trial a couple of specialist footers ideas, Arya Audio RevOPods and IsoAcoustics Gaias, that will dispense w the need for these Shelves.

They will take the Zu closer to 1.25" gap, so that will be interesting in itself. And of course couple direct to the floor.

I will bear in mind the idea on just going back to spike directly to the floor as well.

KeithR · Sep 6, 2018

Steve Williams said:
I've never looked back since removing them David

My deep bass is so much better now

Old habits die hard and it took me a while to get to that point but happy that I did

I recommended losing them years ago, as well. But your speakers have much more natural extension below 50hz with 12" and 15" dedicated drivers.

Marc's roll off at 50-60hz significantly

KeithR · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Dave, your words ring true.

My options are
1- kick back and relax (very likely LOL) - stick as is, or reintroduce those subs, and work harder at integration.
2- upgraded version of my current spkrs, but w the option of powering on-board subs w outboard Class A/AB amp (Zu will provide this option).
3- go for dedicated outboard non Zu Class A/AB subs.
4- upgrade to full range horns like Haigner Alpha or GammaHorns where I can single amp the whole lot w my Class A Nat 211s
5- go left field w Apogee Duettas and get away w my current tubes powering all the ribbons (certainly if I subdivide my room from 38-48' deep to 23' deep, halving the floor area and volume), or bite the bullet and run something like Class A/AB Boulder or Gryphon or bespoke hybrid amp a member here is considering making, for Duettas or Scintillas.

Here you go spinning your wheels again. Honestly, you simply can't enjoy the sound in your room, no matter what. You've added new bass amps, grounding boxes, platforms, cables, spikes, tweaks, etc all with "amazing" results and yet still dislike the sound.

I think you need an intervention lol. Maybe Ked can help.

Hifi *shouldn't* be this hard.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Keith, I can't be having that- 50 to 60Hz won't get me my audiophile stripes LOL.

I thought Zu FRDs spec down to 40Hz in room?

My issue is not so much a blanket issue w subs bass integration, more that on some material, on occasions, sub bass output smears some lower level information or detail.

I'm returning to the idea of taking the subs input as minimally as possible, paying a lot of attention to PEQ Freq and Gain settings.

And have some confidence these specialist footers will give a double impact on increasing the spkrs-floor gap, and return to direct coupling to the floor married w isolating the spkr from the effects of the floor, pretty much what the Stacore platform has done for my tt.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

I'm happy to bore everyone to tears, but Zu, and my journey w Zu is of interest to v few people. And so unless I get asked for more Zu input or people kindly offer their Zu input like Jack has done, I'm not going to hog my own thread.

I would like to see if the thread broadens out to other experiences of owners w big spkrs that go deep w no adjustability, and trying rooms.

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