And then there were three...

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

First Steve W, then Tang, now me.

I mean turning off my subs. I'm not 100% convinced I won't go back, but I'm not majorly missing them. And FWIW, the upsides are considerable atm.

So Steve and Tang, it's catching.

morricab · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
First Steve W, then Tang, now me.

I mean turning off my subs. I'm not 100% convinced I won't go back, but I'm not majorly missing them. And FWIW, the upsides are considerable atm.

So Steve and Tang, it's catching.

I thought with the Definitions the subs were built-in and without you have no bass to speak of. What frequency do they cut in?

I also have gone away from using a sub. It worked well with my Ref 3A monitors but with the big horns the blend is not perfect and therefore sometimes intrusive...the bass is powerful enough with nearly all music anyway.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Brad, the Zu full range drivers cross to the inbuilt subs at 38-40Hz.

So yes, I'm without the deepest bass as things stand, but with these drivers continuous from the treble down to c40Hz, maybe a little lower in my room, it's not as if there's no bass, in fact things sound pretty textured and solid.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

I'd like to open this up beyond me and my situation.

Plenty of audiophiles have spkrs that reach very low, 30Hz, 20Hz, some even lower.

But many will have no subs type controls on sub 30Hz.

So if I'm even struggling to get things right w settings on crossover level, volume, PEQ freq and gain, absolute phase controls, how do other users get their low bass right?

Case in point, Rockport Arrakis, it extends down to sub 20Hz, but is not user adjustable. Msybe the big Wilsons and Focals too.

And if I indeed go down the Apogees route via Duettas, these too get close to 20Hz, but have no adjustability to suit different rooms, what goes for these?

PeterA · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
I'd like to open this up beyond me and my situation.

Plenty of audiophiles have spkrs that reach very low, 30Hz, 20Hz, some even lower.

But many will have no subs type controls on sub 30Hz.

So if I'm even struggling to get things right w settings on crossover level, volume, PEQ freq and gain, absolute phase controls, how do other users get their low bass right?

Case in point, Rockport Arrakis, it extends down to sub 20Hz, but is not user adjustable. Msybe the big Wilsons and Focals too.

And if I indeed go down the Apogees route via Duettas, these too get close to 20Hz, but have no adjustability to suit different rooms, what goes for these?

Marc,

In my opinion, if someone owns full range speakers and does not like the way the bass sounds, there are four possible reasons:

1. The speakers are not optimally set up in the room or the listening seat is not located in the general area for smoothest bass response.

2. The speaker/room match is not optimal. The room may simply not be able to handle the low frequencies that that particular speaker can produce. Acoustic treatment may help.

3. The speakers are not designed properly.

4. The owner did not buy speakers that match his set of preferences.

To suggest that all full range speakers be designed with adjustable low frequencies is overlooking the other possibilities which I mentioned above. You, Steve W., and Tang have very different conditions and to suggest that there is some trend toward better sound by turning off subs is a bit strange. I can see why large sub systems like Mike's towers have user adjustability built in to fine tune them to a customer's room. JL Audio, Magico S and Q subs and others have these too because the designer wants them to be flexible enough to properly blend in with the main speakers. But in these cases, the speaker/room (with treatment) match must also be appropriate.

A 3 or 4-way speaker is a completely different thing. In these designs, I presume the designer tried to integrate the drivers as well as he possibly could. It is then left to the customer to properly locate the listening seat and to position the speakers for the best overall sound, assuming the room is appropriate in the first place.

Have you experimented much with your speaker and or listening seat locations for smoothest/best bass response? It seems odd that after all of your recent efforts with system improvements, isolation, power, room, that you do not seem satisfied with the bass of your Zu speakers. When did you first start noticing these issues?

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2018

Superb post.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Peter, the bass from the main drivers which go down to late 30's Hz is fine. It won't be to everyone's taste, because most mid drivers cross to woofers anywhere between 120 to 500 Hz. Mine are continuous from 12kHz all the way down to 35-40Hz. So it's a misunderstanding that I'm "unhappy" w my bass. More precisely I'm not fully integrating the Class D down firing subs that take the deep bass down from 35-40Hz to low 20's.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Additionally Peter, Tang and Steve W have both dispensed w their subs.

Do you contend they also have possibly sub optimal set up issues?

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

I have my own theories for my own situation, but I'm just curious as to how those owners of non adjustable full range speakers get them JUST so in their rooms.

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Additionally Peter, Tang and Steve W have both dispensed w their subs.

Do you contend they also have possibly sub optimal set up issues?

This is an unfair question that Peter cannot answer and a different point

PeterA · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Peter, the bass from the main drivers which go down to late 30's Hz is fine. It won't be to everyone's taste, because most mid drivers cross to woofers anywhere between 120 to 500 Hz. Mine are continuous from 12kHz all the way down to 35-40Hz. So it's a misunderstanding that I'm "unhappy" w my bass. More precisely I'm not fully integrating the Class D down firing subs that take the deep bass down from 35-40Hz to low 20's.

Marc, I'm glad that you have found a way to improve your sound, but why are you not able to fully integrate the deep bass of your Zu's in your room? Is it the room/speaker match, the locations of the speakers and/or listening seat, the design of the speakers themselves, or your personal taste? It seems that this down firing sub issue is completely different from Tang's and Steve's situations.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Peter, I always find your points well thought out and illuminating, so it's surely a little inconsistent to diagnose I alone may have setup issues that have resulted in my sub bass integration foibles when Tang and Steve also find their spkrs sound better w their subs disengaged. Surely they by definition have setup issues too if they've gone from subs to no subs. There's no exception to be made for me amongst the three of us.

If those two had come on to start a new thread declaring things better w subs off, would you have put the same points to them?

PeterA · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Additionally Peter, Tang and Steve W have both dispensed w their subs.

Do you contend they also have possibly sub optimal set up issues?

I am not suggesting any such thing. What I am suggesting is that each condition is different. And in their two cases, they already have full range systems with which they tried external subwoofer systems. They have satisfying sound and deep extension without the need for external additional subs. I think they each reported better clarity and musical realism without the subs.

Jim Smith tried to integrate a pair of subs with my former monitor speakers. We both preferred the sound without the subs. There were trade offs. Some may have preferred the sound with the subs. Al M. likes the subs with his monitors. Separate subs can not always be well integrated in a system. And sometimes it comes down to the listener's preferences.

You are talking about something completely different: the down firing integrated woofer in a full range floor standing speaker system. You don't seem to like it right now. I am only suggesting that you have not found the proper speaker position or listening seat location in your room, the speaker is not matched properly to your room, the speaker design itself is flawed, or you simply don't like the way your Zus sound anymore.

I am suggesting that you, Tang, and Steve have very different conditions and that the two of them deciding to remove their external subs and you preferring to turn down or off your woofer does not make some kind of trend as the title of this thread suggests.

PeterA · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Peter, I always find your points well thought out and illuminating, so it's surely a little inconsistent to diagnose I alone may have setup issues that have resulted in my sub bass integration foibles when Tang and Steve also find their spkrs sound better w their subs disengaged. Surely they by definition have setup issues too if they've gone from subs to no subs. There's no exception to be made for me amongst the three of us.

If those two had come on to start a new thread declaring things better w subs off, would you have put the same points to them?

Marc, with respect, you are failing to understand my point. Perhaps I was not clear enough but I have tried to explain it now a few times. Sorry. Good luck with your efforts to improve the sound of your system.

Al M. · Sep 6, 2018

PeterA said:
Jim Smith tried to integrate a pair of subs with my former monitor speakers. We both preferred the sound without the subs. There were trade offs. Some may have preferred the sound with the subs. Al M. likes the subs with his monitors. Separate subs can not always be well integrated in a system. And sometimes it comes down to the listener's preferences.

Peter, while I was at first in favor of a sub in your room when we tried it, I then realized that it didn't sound right. The bass, even though there were no clear issues with integration, nonetheless had an 'added' quality to it that after a while seemed obviously artificial. I don't have this problem in my room, so each situation is different. I therefore agree with you that in your room the monitors sounded better without sub. Adding subs to your Q3 speakers may be a different matter. It remains to be seen if this would work well.

PeterA · Sep 6, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
I have my own theories for my own situation, but I'm just curious as to how those owners of non adjustable full range speakers get them JUST so in their rooms.

We do the best we can through deliberate speaker selection, and subsequent set up. It is not always easy, but it can often result in deeply satisfying musical enjoyment. Sometimes it is not possible and people sell what they have and try something different. When they are lucky, they have a good dealer or consultant who can help. There are many threads and resources discussing this topic.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 6, 2018

while three prominent WBF users choosing to not use separate subwoofers is not any proof of anything, to me it simply underscores how much our musical connection can be disrupted by intrusive low frequency distortion. our sympathy to the music is enhanced by realism in the bass. yet it's such a fine line that occasional nits and nats in those lower octaves reduces our comfort level feeling of peace. at a certain point we just don't want to be bothered by some artifact that gets in the way.

and it's the living long term that is the proof of things. adding subs can add an initial wow. but over time the truth emerges. it's why many accept the trade-off of various dsp approaches.

I agree that every situation is different. and likely tolerance for compromise varies too, and even maybe our own evolution in expectations (or musical choices or formats) might cause us to go either for or away from the added sub approach. we might hear familiar music sound more real than what we hear in our 'added subwoofer' system and our eyes get opened.

it's hard enough to integrate one speaker system into a room and system, the odds of adding a second one properly are not good.....not that it can't be, and is not being, done by many.

PeterA · Sep 6, 2018

Al M. said:
Peter, while I was at first in favor of a sub in your room when we tried it, I then realized that it didn't sound right. The bass, even though there were no clear issues with integration, nonetheless had an 'added' quality to it that after a while seemed obviously artificial. I don't have this problem in my room, so each situation is different. I therefore agree with you that in your room the monitors sounded better without sub. Adding subs to your Q3 speakers may be a different matter. It remains to be seen if this would work well.

I agree, but it may be tough in my room for a number of reasons, one being aesthetics. I have heard the Magico S7 with S Subs and the new M3 with Q Subs. Both combinations at Goodwins were superb sounding. The subs only made things better, in very subtle ways. I think it would be difficult to replicate in my room given the space constraints, but who knows until it is tried.

spiritofmusic · Sep 6, 2018

Peter, we may be talking at cross purposes. Yes, individual circumstances are just that, individual. Every room is different too. FWIW, I agree down firing subs may be an issue, but plenty of specialist subs companies use this method, apparently it can load a room more evenly. It may be that the disconnect of pure Class A tubes down to 40Hz, and Class D SS below is impossible to meld invisibly. It may be that it's harder to integrate sub bass with full range drivers, than it is w mutiway spkrs where mids cross to woofers at 150-500Hz. It may be that there's a quality in the Zu full range driver of slight emphasis of density over transparency in the 40-100Hz region that exaggerates the hand over below 40Hz. And many other things. And yes, maybe this is the first sign I'm outgrowing the Zus, and am looking for a more even full range alternative.

KeithR · Sep 6, 2018

I tried this on Definitions once - lasted 24 hours. The speaker doesn't sound right without the active bass. I think something else is bothering you, not the sub integration - likely a room issue.

Also think comparing this to Steve W is completely different.

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