Is better sound with RCA cable or XLR cable?

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
2,508
1,949
343
I ask this because Kuro,Riviera and other expert people say that rca cable is better sound than xlr cable also with pre and amp 100% balanced and with also rca input

I will try with Kuro rca and xlr with CH Precision that are balanced but has also rca input

I have not big experience with xlr because always had unbalanced tube amp

Any experience?
 

Sablon Audio

Industry Expert, VIP Donor
May 22, 2015
1,613
1,484
553
i’m not sure there is an absolute answer to this Gian as the outcome is dependent on the circuitry of the equipment / differences in cable geometry / subjective preferences. Quite often dacs may have dual differential conversion which will give higher resolution on xlr and conversely many (mostly tube) amplifiers can be innately single ended but add transformers for xlr. Quite a few variables.
 
Last edited:

bazelio

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
2,494
1,748
345
California
I ask this because Kuro,Riviera and other expert people say that rca cable is better sound than xlr cable also with pre and amp 100% balanced and with also rca input

I will try with Kuro rca and xlr with CH Precision that are balanced but has also rca input

I have not big experience with xlr because always had unbalanced tube amp

Any experience?


This question can not be answered with certainty and you're likely going to get a lot of religion in the thread. The gear being connected is going to be a factor. Is it truly balanced, is it just differential and driving opposite phase, or is it converting your balanced input through a balun transformer to single ended. Transformers add color and will give rise to "a sound" that might incorrectly be attributed to the cable simply because the singled ended connection bypasses the transformer. Then, do you have noise issues, where balanced interconnect common mode rejection may actually be beneficial? Etc, etc. No clear cut answer, plain and simple.

Now, with all that aside, if we look at cable construction - unbalanced/RCA often times looks to have an advantage. For example many or most XLR cables, even the high end, funnel the signal through a $4 Neutrik XLR connector. This can be a limiting factor as they are usually silver plated brass, or lower grade copper. The better Furutech XLR connectors may still be using impure copper like OFC, instead of OCC. So, this will add distortion compared to the cream of the crop RCA connectors such as those from WBT. And it's audible (I've experimented a lot with my handy soldering iron). Lastly, it has been demonstrated that balanced designs cancel even order harmonics (which we associate with a pleasant listening experience), but do not cancel odd order harmonics (which we associate with a displeasing listening experience). Your mileage may vary but these are reasons why, anecdotally, folks may observe less sound variance from cable to cable with balanced designs than with unbalanced designs.

I, myself, will always use single ended so long as I'm using a tonearm which is wired single ended (as is my Kuzma 4-Point). I simply do not believe in converting unbalanced to balanced (nor the other direction) midstream. And I actually think the best answer to the question is to avoid doing so in any system where transparency is a primary consideration: If your source is balanced, stay balanced throughout. Similarly, if your source is unbalanced, stay unbalanced throughout the chain. :)
 

analogsa

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2017
387
125
175
Cascais
The gear being connected is going to be a factor. Is it truly balanced, is it just differential and driving opposite phase, or is it converting your balanced input through a balun transformer to single ended.

This goes to the heart of the issue. Plenty of "fake" balanced gear around to make any generalisations.

Examples abound: phono preamps being entirely single ended, but generating a second phase right at the output, line stages which treat the SE and BAL inputs in an entirely different way and severely prejudicing the balanced operation, power amps which use the cheapest opamps money can buy to convert BAL to SE at the input. Plenty of examples of "respected" manufacturers doing all this, just so their gear can get balanced inputs or outputs. Transformers could in theory be fine, only manufacturers are extremely stingy when it comes to spending money on quality parts and lousy transformers are common.

So, no, most consumers have no idea what it is they are comparing and this is even before bringing cables in the equation.

IME though, going balanced brings extreme joy in many areas, mostly in soundstaging and low level detail. Starting from a balanced power amp and going backwards each new balanced connection brings positives. From this POV it is essential the preamp is capable of doing the SE > BAL conversion well, as all SE sources stand to benefit to some extent. Of course this is not quite the same as having genuine balanced sources.
 

leyenda

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2011
222
115
948
With truly balanced gear I always enjoy xlr more. Like many above, if single end - bal conversion is done by opamps or transformers (ie Shindo preamp that I tried), I enjoy single end more as it will sound more pure. As for phono, some designers would argue that the original signal from your cartridge can be considered fully balanced, as you have +/- signal coming on left/right channels coming from your cartridge (the four color wire you connect on your tonearm), so add a ground and there you have a truly balanced signal. Therefore some phono preamps (brands escape my memory) have only xlr inputs. Again, I think the circuit implementation is the key.
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
As mentioned previously, there are a lot of balanced output drivers on components out there that use 100% solid state. To get a truly balanced signal, one needs a transformer, Why? because the signals on the + and - wires will never be EXACTLY the same amplitude with solid state. This creates an imbalance in the two signals which wreaks havoc with the input receiver.

Devices like this will eliminate this imbalance. It is not cheaply done at high sound quality:

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/final-drive

As for the cable itself, there is no reason why one cannot fabricate an XLR terminated balanced cable that performs just as good as a single-ended RCA terminated cable. Optimization of both cables includes: proper selection and treatment of the conductors, geometry that minimizes capacitance per unit length and dielectrics that minimize dielectric absorption.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

opus112

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2016
462
4
148
Zhejiang
...the signals on the + and - wires will never be EXACTLY the same amplitude with solid state. This creates an imbalance in the two signals which wreaks havoc with the input receiver.

How does the slight imbalance 'wreak havoc' with the input receiver? As far as I can see its CMRR is unaffected by slightly different signal amplitudes at its input pins.
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 25, 2015
6,029
1,501
550
Eastern WA
So far SE wins for me.

Conversion or not, you double the bad parts of any circuit when you go balanced. I'm not saying that's why I like SE, but maybe it is related to my subjective preference.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,042
995
Utah
I ask this because Kuro,Riviera and other expert people say that rca cable is better sound than xlr cable also with pre and amp 100% balanced and with also rca input

I will try with Kuro rca and xlr with CH Precision that are balanced but has also rca input

I have not big experience with xlr because always had unbalanced tube amp

Any experience?

It isn't XLR vs RCA connectors it's balanced circuitry vs SE. For me Single Ended is more natural sounding than the additional circuitry and/or transformers associated with balanced designs but these days many manufacturers seem to be incompetent when it comes to quiet SE electronics so they stick a transformer in there to quiet things up.

david
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,183
13,604
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
All else being equal I prefer single-ended connections. I do not like that balanced connections suppress even order harmonic distortion.

But with very long interconnects (>25 feet) I get concerned about single-ended.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
It isn't XLR vs RCA connectors it's balanced circuitry vs SE.(...)

Exactly. What complicates things is that the typical output and input impedance usually associated with these circuits is different - although it is not a rule, balanced (XLR) is usually lower impedance than SE (RCA) .

In some situations we can prefer the sound of balanced input devices in SE mode - for example, I still have not decided if I prefer the sound of the DCS Vivaldi /ARC REF 40 in SE or XLR. I generically assumed that I preferred the XLR, as I owned the tuned Transparent Audio XLR OPUS, but when I got a similar tuned SE OPUS things become much more complicated. Each mode has its strong points. BTW, the SE output of the Vivaldi is a separate output with different output impedance, it is not just link to the positive phase of the XLR, as in many DACs.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
All else being equal I prefer single-ended connections. I do not like that balanced connections suppress even order harmonic distortion. (...)

It is just semantics, but balanced mode does not suppress even order harmonic distortion - it simply does not add even harmonic distortion. But it surely suppresses common mode noise, particularly power supply induced noise, that is intrinsically common mode. In most of our our typical applications common mode induced noise in cables is very reduced.

Considering the importance designers put in the power supplies, probably balanced mode is reducing the signature of the designer of the electronics ... As always IMHO, YMMV!
 

analogsa

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2017
387
125
175
Cascais
Perhaps the most important advantage of balanced connections is that ground is no longer a signal carrying conductor and this solves quite a few issues. Especially if the equipment uses safety earth.
 

bazelio

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
2,494
1,748
345
California
It is just semantics, but balanced mode does not suppress even order harmonic distortion - it simply does not add even harmonic distortion. But it surely suppresses common mode noise, particularly power supply induced noise, that is intrinsically common mode. In most of our our typical applications common mode induced noise in cables is very reduced.

Considering the importance designers put in the power supplies, probably balanced mode is reducing the signature of the designer of the electronics ... As always IMHO, YMMV!

Equipment produces harmonic distortion of which even-order being common mode would be subjected to cancellation in a differential design. Imperfect cancellation, but non-zero.
 

analogsa

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2017
387
125
175
Cascais
It is just semantics, but balanced mode does not suppress even order harmonic distortion - it simply does not add even harmonic distortion.

This again is a matter of topology. Your ARC preamp, being a differential amp with an added cathode follower is a good example of a circuit which suppresses the generation of even harmonics. Whether the third harmonic becomes dominant depends upon the characteristics of the particular valves.
 

Atmasphere

Industry Expert
May 4, 2010
2,360
1,853
1,760
St. Paul, MN
www.atma-sphere.com
Now, with all that aside, if we look at cable construction - unbalanced/RCA often times looks to have an advantage. For example many or most XLR cables, even the high end, funnel the signal through a $4 Neutrik XLR connector. This can be a limiting factor as they are usually silver plated brass, or lower grade copper. The better Furutech XLR connectors may still be using impure copper like OFC, instead of OCC. So, this will add distortion compared to the cream of the crop RCA connectors such as those from WBT. And it's audible (I've experimented a lot with my handy soldering iron). Lastly, it has been demonstrated that balanced designs cancel even order harmonics (which we associate with a pleasant listening experience), but do not cancel odd order harmonics (which we associate with a displeasing listening experience). Your mileage may vary but these are reasons why, anecdotally, folks may observe less sound variance from cable to cable with balanced designs than with unbalanced designs.

I, myself, will always use single ended so long as I'm using a tonearm which is wired single ended (as is my Kuzma 4-Point). I simply do not believe in converting unbalanced to balanced (nor the other direction) midstream. And I actually think the best answer to the question is to avoid doing so in any system where transparency is a primary consideration: If your source is balanced, stay balanced throughout. Similarly, if your source is unbalanced, stay unbalanced throughout the chain. :)

It might be of interest to you to know that all cartridges are balanced sources, and only get to be single-ended by how they are connected at the output of the tone arm. If you have a five wire connection (the 5th being the tone arm ground) then you have a balanced connection- often which is being run single-ended. The nice thing about going balanced with the cartridge is that the tone arm cable ceases to impose a sonic artifact, and since this is at the output of the cartridge, this is the best possible place for that sort of thing to be going on.


As mentioned previously, there are a lot of balanced output drivers on components out there that use 100% solid state. To get a truly balanced signal, one needs a transformer, Why? because the signals on the + and - wires will never be EXACTLY the same amplitude with solid state. This creates an imbalance in the two signals which wreaks havoc with the input receiver.

Devices like this will eliminate this imbalance. It is not cheaply done at high sound quality:

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/final-drive

As for the cable itself, there is no reason why one cannot fabricate an XLR terminated balanced cable that performs just as good as a single-ended RCA terminated cable. Optimization of both cables includes: proper selection and treatment of the conductors, geometry that minimizes capacitance per unit length and dielectrics that minimize dielectric absorption.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Just so you know, you can have a truly balanced output without using transformers. You can use a Circlotron, which also allows for the balanced output to be direct-coupled. We got the patent on that. FWIW, we introduced the first balanced line components to high end audio.

50 foot is the standard, not 25.

This statement is false. There is no standard for interconnect cable length :)

All else being equal I prefer single-ended connections. I do not like that balanced connections suppress even order harmonic distortion.

Ron, as pointed out earlier the cable has nothing to do with suppressing even ordered harmonics. The operation of the source and load does, but there is more to that and I suspect you want to know about it. The reason people often think single ended is better has to do with distortion- particularly the even orders; if you're going to have distortion, why not have distortion that is musical? But its not that simple, quite often with high THD you also have higher IMD, that of which is extremely audible and irritating.

In a fully differential balanced circuit, the primary harmonic distortion component is the 3rd rather than the 2nd. The 3rd harmonic is musical to the human ear in a way that is very much like the 2nd. Now you might know that our circuits are zero feedback and fully differential and balanced. We get the 3rd harmonic, but at a level that is less than the the level that the 3rd shows up in single-ended zero feedback circuits. The other, higher ordered harmonics are also at a reduced level.

Something you may not be taking into account is that when distortion of all harmonics is present in a gain stage, as the signal progresses from one stage to another, those distortions are compounded. If you can keep distortion down as the signal proceeds through the circuit, overall you will simply get less of the most irritating distortions- the higher ordered harmonics and IMD.

Now the ear has a masking principle that is well-known. The presence of distortion can mask lower level detail that is otherwise heard when the distortion is controlled. So a fully differential balanced circuit with balanced connections can sound considerably more transparent and more relaxed than its single-ended competition, and this difference is not subtle- its something anyone can hear in 5 seconds flat. I would not be so quick to discount balanced operation based on some bad apples.

By bad apples, I mean those players in the high end audio industry that don't seem to understand how balanced connections work, and thus make 'balanced' products that get really variable results. How its supposed to work is that the cable should not impose a sound quality, but we see that happening all the time, and its because many high end audio products don't support the balanced line standard (often AKA AES48).

In a nutshell, if you get to hear balanced line done right, there's no going back to single-ended. Its that good- imagine a system where you could have the sound of the most expensive and best cables on earth, but without the cost. That's the balanced line system- it was created in part to eliminate the sound that cables otherwise impose and as also created to get rid of ground loop buzz. Its very good at both if the standard is observed.
 

bazelio

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
2,494
1,748
345
California
It might be of interest to you to know that all cartridges are balanced sources, and only get to be single-ended by how they are connected at the output of the tone arm. If you have a five wire connection (the 5th being the tone arm ground) then you have a balanced connection- often which is being run single-ended. The nice thing about going balanced with the cartridge is that the tone arm cable ceases to impose a sonic artifact, and since this is at the output of the cartridge, this is the best possible place for that sort of thing to be going on.

Yep! Ron and I were talking about this in PM... In my case, and I suspect a lot of cases (?), my tonearms (Kuzma 4-pt) are hard-wired single ended to RCA connectors. So I connect to a phono stage through single ended inputs, and I don't have any desire to use the faux-balanced outputs at any stage in the chain.
 

Atmasphere

Industry Expert
May 4, 2010
2,360
1,853
1,760
St. Paul, MN
www.atma-sphere.com
Yep! Ron and I were talking about this in PM... In my case, and I suspect a lot of cases (?), my tonearms (Kuzma 4-pt) are hard-wired single ended to RCA connectors. So I connect to a phono stage through single ended inputs, and I don't have any desire to use the faux-balanced outputs at any stage in the chain.

So your arm doesn't have the 5 pin DIN at the rear of the arm?
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,042
995
Utah
It might be of interest to you to know that all cartridges are balanced sources, and only get to be single-ended by how they are connected at the output of the tone arm. If you have a five wire connection (the 5th being the tone arm ground) then you have a balanced connection- often which is being run single-ended. The nice thing about going balanced with the cartridge is that the tone arm cable ceases to impose a sonic artifact, and since this is at the output of the cartridge, this is the best possible place for that sort of thing to be going on.

Do wire vendors agree with you on this about their mega dollar cables Ralph? Why would wire conductors, design and connectors not have a sonic impact in this case when the design and materials of the SUT have a direct impact on the sound? Not trying to catch you but trying to understand what you mean and how's that possible.

In a nutshell, if you get to hear balanced line done right, there's no going back to single-ended. Its that good- imagine a system where you could have the sound of the most expensive and best cables on earth, but without the cost. That's the balanced line system- it was created in part to eliminate the sound that cables otherwise impose and as also created to get rid of ground loop buzz. Its very good at both if the standard is observed.

One can use the same argument for SETs, there's no going back if you hear a properly designed one with a proprietary transformer.

Balanced wasn't designed for a few feet of cabling it was a way to deal with hum and noise on miles and miles of telephone wires, how does it apply to short phono cables?

david
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing