Tweaks : A sensible investment or a waste of money?

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Barry, "Zu centric" wasn't directed at me, was it?

I remember the days when the rule of thumb on a budget was 90% on components, 10% on cables and supports.

That was up to the late 1980s.

Then Mana Acoustics came along, and the first upgradeable audiophile supports were born, and a whole new area to spend on.

Now that 90/10 rule became more 66/33.

I'm a Zu speaker's fan.

10% of the overall hi-fi stereo sound system budget dedicated to speaker cables and interconnects sounds very reasonable to me (power cords too, and surge protector), and many pro audio writers/reviewers/dealers/scientists abide by that rule of thumb. It wasn't written in concrete blocks of the ten commandments but it's a common law loosely based in the home audio industry...a guide.

Say a total system costs $100,000 - $10,000 is fair for speaker wires and interconnects and AC power cords, more or less...$5,000 to $20,000 depending on the percentage of sound quality improvement, say about or more than 3%?

If the total system costs $10,000 - $1,000 to $2,000 sounds fair for speaker cables, power cables and interconnects...surge protector.

Are all audiophiles reasonable? Some, not all. Bring the champagne I'll cook the filet mignon. :b
 

GaryProtein

VIP/Donor
Jul 25, 2012
2,542
31
385
NY
Is loudspeaker positioning considered a tweak?
About room treatment and furniture?

Speaker placement, furniture placement and room treatment are not tweaks to my mind. Star grounding is not a tweak, again, that is good basic wiring protocol. They are part of a good installation. The Entreq box filled with sawdust and metal filings is another laughable tweak. Cable elevators are another tweak. If your cables don't have good enough insulation to not interact with the floor, get better cables. Racks that just sit there are a tweak, active isolation tables like Minus-K and Herzan actually do something and are not tweaks. Footers for electronic equipment are tweaks. You can place a solid state amplifier on top of a subwoofer and never know it was there unless you were looking at it. I could go on, but most people probably don't want to hear it. ;)

I almost forgot a couple of my favorite audio follies:

Synergistic research had a couple of the most hilarious tweaks I have ever seen. Most memorable was the Headphone Optimized Transducer, which was so hilarious it is no longer on their website and the Synergistic HFT and wide angle HFT hasn't been laughed off the market yet.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
That's a great overall take Gary.

Speaker positioning is fine tuning, not an additional gadget audio tweak, agreed.
Room acoustic treatment is a component of the audio chain, an essential fine tuning sound design by using materials; absorbers, diffusers, bass traps, etc. It's not an audio gadget tweak.
Furniture is a choice, a decor friendly choice, but it can also be selected for sound properties...a helper, not an audio gadget tweak.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
My room is 27x20x8 and is basically all drywall except for 2 windows on the right hand side in the rear. Before I did any treating the room was fatiguing and boomy. I hired Jeff Hedback to analyze the room and design a treatment plan. What resulted was 48 panels (diffusers on the ceiling and side walls for the first point of reflection, bass traps in the front corners, bass traps around the ceiling where they hit the wall and some absorbers behind the speakers). The room is now very quiet and neutral. I can listen to music for hours with no fatigue. Feel free to PM if you want more details.

+1
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Surely your opinion is valid, Bob, and is a perfect definition.

But my feeling (perhaps wrong) is that in post 1 Barry was not questioning the investment in sound treatments, just in the other tweaks!

Absolutely correct.
And later on when Mike Lavigne joined in he said it right; when everything is in place then come the final tweaks in fine tuning the system quasi perfectly.
And, DaveyF said it too, right from the bat.

Hey, after all is almost done it's never over. Hiend audiophiles, some, buy new turntables, cartridges, speakers, cables, etc., just to make sure something is not better. It's a very good thing because it keeps hiend audio forums alive, very.
And this audio business industry too...audio shows and all.

Music matters.
___

If I may
https://youtu.be/S2QmtENFh2Y
 

COF

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2017
152
126
148
My posts suggest to people, correctly, that I am more skeptical about tweaks than probably is the average WBF member. I think tweaks should be the icing on the cake; they should not be used as a large Band-Aid on a system which is failing fundamentally to satisfy its owner.

Hyperbolic written and oral descriptions (which, of course, attract the attention of the ever-vigilant WBF Hyperbole Police) of tweaks aside I, for one, have written into the scripture MikeL’s quantification several months ago that all of his tweaks add approximately five (5) percent to the sound quality of his system.

I think a number like 5% sounds conceptually correct in terms of my notion that tweaks should be the icing on the cake.

Maybe even the icing on the cake suggests too material an improvement in overall sound quality. Maybe tweaks should be a few strawberries on top of the cake?

It's nice to see the site founder express some skepticism about high end audio tweaks.

I'm pretty sure I go even further than you do in my skepticism :)

Personally I find it impossible not to notice the similarities in how many audiophiles (and reviewers, and high end manufacturers of certain types) come to their beliefs about tweaks, with any number of pseudo sciences and dubious beliefs, be it alternative medicine, or any of the claims one would find at the local psychic fair. I'm not therefore saying that all declarations about the differences between cables, or the effects of "tweaks" in high end audio are false. But rather, the mix of dubious technical explanations with an almost purely subjective vetting method creates a subjective free-for-all where "everything makes a difference" (exactly what one would expect if the effects were mostly subjective).

For instance, despite years of claims by manufacturers and audiophiles that isolation tweaks/feet/racks alter the sound of components like CD players, pre-amps, amps etc, not once have I ever seen measurements presented showing any change to the output signal with isolation vs without isolation. E.g. if isolation cones/feet under a CD player or pre-amp or whatever, actually alters the sound, it's altering the signal at some point and this should be measurable. I'm not talking simply about measuring some reduction in vibration - e.g. if you have a CD player on sufficiently squishy or abortive material, and you apply some level of vibration around the player, I'm sure you could measure less vibration with the CD player on the feet vs off (I've measured such differences myself when making an isolation base for my Turntable). Rather, the claims are that isolation feet/devices actually change the SOUND output of the source component, or amp/pre-amp. In which case it makes sense to be asking questions like what level of ambient vibration would any such device usually encounter in the first place? Or if it is vibration created by the speakers, what level of vibration must the equipment in question be subjected to in order to show up as altering the output signal to some audible degree? How is this threshhold of audibility measured and demonstrated? And then, what type of measurements demonstrate that the isolation tweak in question reduces the *audible* vibration effects to inaudible levels?

I don't recall ever seeing any of these things demonstrated in any quantitative manner. (If someone has a link to such demonstrations, I'd love to check them out).

Same with racks or whatever vibration control application we may want to look at. It just seems to be taken for granted in much of the audiophile world that "everything makes a difference" which is just what you'd get if you leave interpreting the results only to the realm of the subjective.

Again, this isn't a claim that tweaks don't work; it's just a point that many seem based on dubious claims to begin with, and we get nothing but anecdote as "evidence" for the results. You get mostly some technical conjecture....and then anecdotes as "proof" it works. Essentially same method that fuels any number of suspicious medical nostrums and other belief systems.

Unfortunately just voicing one's own skepticism is usually seen as party crashing, and one often becomes under attack because this is seen to question the very experience of the audiophile and..."how dare you!"

Just adding my own thoughts to the mix.

Cheers!
 
Last edited:

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,318
1,427
1,820
Manila, Philippines
It's nice to see the site founder express some skepticism about high end audio tweaks.

I'm pretty sure I go even further than you do in my skepticism :)

Personally I find it impossible not to notice the similarities in how many audiophiles (and reviewers, and high end manufacturers of certain types) come to their beliefs about tweaks, with any number of pseudo sciences and dubious beliefs, be it alternative medicine, or any of the claims one would find at the local psychic fair. I'm not therefore saying that all declarations about the differences between cables, or the effects of "tweaks" in high end audio are false. But rather, the mix of dubious technical explanations with an almost purely subjective vetting method creates a subjective free-for-all where "everything makes a difference" (exactly what one would expect if the effects were mostly subjective).

For instance, despite years of claims by manufacturers and audiophiles that isolation tweaks/feet/racks alter the sound of components like CD players, pre-amps, amps etc, not once have I ever seen measurements presented showing any change to the output signal with isolation vs without isolation. E.g. if isolation cones/feet under a CD player or pre-amp or whatever, actually alters the sound, it's altering the signal at some point and this should be measurable. I'm not talking simply about measuring some reduction in vibration - e.g. if you have a CD player on sufficiently squishy or abortive material, and you apply some level of vibration around the player, I'm sure you could measure less vibration with the CD player on the feet vs off (I've measured such differences myself when making an isolation base for my Turntable). Rather, the claims are that isolation feet/devices actually change the SOUND output of the source component, or amp/pre-amp. In which case it makes sense to be asking questions like "what level of ambient vibration would any such device usually encounter in the first place? Or if it is vibration created by the speakers, what level of vibration must the equipment in question be subjected to in order to show up as altering the output signal to some audible degree? How is this threshhold of audibility measured and demonstrated? And then, what type of measurements demonstrate that the isolation tweak in question reduces the *audible* vibration effects to inaudible levels?

I don't recall ever seeing any of these things demonstrated in any qualitative manner. (If someone has a link to such demonstrations, I'd love to check them out).

Same with racks or whatever vibration control application we may want to look at. It just seems to be taken for granted in much of the audiophile world that "everything makes a difference" which is just what you'd get if you leave interpreting the results only to the realm of the subjective.

Again, this isn't a claim that tweaks don't work; it's just a point that many seem based on dubious claims to begin with, and we get nothing but anecdote as "evidence" for the results. You get mostly some technical conjecture....and then anecdotes as "proof" it works. Essentially same method that fuels any number of suspicious medical nostrums and other belief systems.

Unfortunately just voicing one's own skepticism is usually seen as party crashing, and one often becomes under attack because this is seen to question the very experience of the audiophile and..."how dare you!"

Just adding my own thoughts to the mix.

Cheers!

The problem is that the measurement tool you would use for changes in the sound would need to be RTA. Real time is very difficult to correlate simply because the vision we use is literally almost a thousand times slower per second. A snapshot won't work and obviously neither will long windows. Sh*t outa luck man. Welcome to the real world where these are used as guides in studios along with real time absolute phase displays. At this point in time the only measurements that seem to be able to make meaningful real time correlations have been the experiments monitoring brain activity. These experiments are sadly too few and far between.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
It's nice to see the site founder express some skepticism about high end audio tweaks.

I'm pretty sure I go even further than you do in my skepticism :)

Personally I find it impossible not to notice the similarities in how many audiophiles (and reviewers, and high end manufacturers of certain types) come to their beliefs about tweaks, with any number of pseudo sciences and dubious beliefs, be it alternative medicine, or any of the claims one would find at the local psychic fair. I'm not therefore saying that all declarations about the differences between cables, or the effects of "tweaks" in high end audio are false. But rather, the mix of dubious technical explanations with an almost purely subjective vetting method creates a subjective free-for-all where "everything makes a difference" (exactly what one would expect if the effects were mostly subjective).

For instance, despite years of claims by manufacturers and audiophiles that isolation tweaks/feet/racks alter the sound of components like CD players, pre-amps, amps etc, not once have I ever seen measurements presented showing any change to the output signal with isolation vs without isolation. E.g. if isolation cones/feet under a CD player or pre-amp or whatever, actually alters the sound, it's altering the signal at some point and this should be measurable. I'm not talking simply about measuring some reduction in vibration - e.g. if you have a CD player on sufficiently squishy or abortive material, and you apply some level of vibration around the player, I'm sure you could measure less vibration with the CD player on the feet vs off (I've measured such differences myself when making an isolation base for my Turntable). Rather, the claims are that isolation feet/devices actually change the SOUND output of the source component, or amp/pre-amp. In which case it makes sense to be asking questions like what level of ambient vibration would any such device usually encounter in the first place? Or if it is vibration created by the speakers, what level of vibration must the equipment in question be subjected to in order to show up as altering the output signal to some audible degree? How is this threshhold of audibility measured and demonstrated? And then, what type of measurements demonstrate that the isolation tweak in question reduces the *audible* vibration effects to inaudible levels?

I don't recall ever seeing any of these things demonstrated in any quantitative manner. (If someone has a link to such demonstrations, I'd love to check them out).

Same with racks or whatever vibration control application we may want to look at. It just seems to be taken for granted in much of the audiophile world that "everything makes a difference" which is just what you'd get if you leave interpreting the results only to the realm of the subjective.

Again, this isn't a claim that tweaks don't work; it's just a point that many seem based on dubious claims to begin with, and we get nothing but anecdote as "evidence" for the results. You get mostly some technical conjecture....and then anecdotes as "proof" it works. Essentially same method that fuels any number of suspicious medical nostrums and other belief systems.

Unfortunately just voicing one's own skepticism is usually seen as party crashing, and one often becomes under attack because this is seen to question the very experience of the audiophile and..."how dare you!"

Just adding my own thoughts to the mix.

Cheers!

Wait for it...who will be the first to call this poster a “troll”!
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,625
5,432
1,278
E. England
Hey, I'm a purveyor of alternative medicine (suspicious medical nostrum) AND believer in tweaks, so guilty twice over LOL.

Are we including dedicated lines in this discussion? Dedicated Fururech duplexes? Isolated feed to a room and custom consumer unit? Balanced power transformer? Bleeding edge hydraulic/mass loaded isolation platform for tt? Room treatments?

Because if we do, then that's well over half of what I've spent on ancilliaries in my system, a third of my components spend. Personally I see these as absolutely essential to my system blossoming and showing it's full potential.

And I really can't see what is surplus to requirements here. Maybe the balanced transformer, but I've done the a/b testing versus straight from the mains, and there's no contest. And this transformer is less than half the cost of my preamp. I don't see any major savings by not having bought these items that would have got gear that would more than have compensated by being unequivocally superior.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,318
1,427
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Wait for it...who will be the first to call this poster a “troll”!

Let's try not to do that. In my reply I tried to point out that for quite a few people the impression is that proof already exists when in fact the science of musical understanding and the tools to measure are still woefully inadequate. In a sense we at this point are just like the architects who built many of the opera houses before Sabine formalized his basic equations between the 19th and 20th century. They did it by ear because that's really all they had. The basic challenge is that music is abstract. The abstract nature shows in the graphic interfaces we use today. For a better understanding of the challenges faced with the quantification of abstractions as it relates to sound and especially music, there is quite a bit to be picked up from this guy. He isn't a pseudo scienntist :)

https://www.ted.com/talks/charles_limb_building_the_musical_muscle
 

COF

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2017
152
126
148
Hey, I'm a purveyor of alternative medicine (suspicious medical nostrum) AND believer in tweaks, so guilty twice over LOL.

Are we including dedicated lines in this discussion? Dedicated Fururech duplexes? Isolated feed to a room and custom consumer unit? Balanced power transformer? Bleeding edge hydraulic/mass loaded isolation platform for tt? Room treatments?

Because if we do, then that's well over half of what I've spent on ancilliaries in my system, a third of my components spend. Personally I see these as absolutely essential to my system blossoming and showing it's full potential.

And I really can't see what is surplus to requirements here. Maybe the balanced transformer, but I've done the a/b testing versus straight from the mains, and there's no contest. And this transformer is less than half the cost of my preamp. I don't see any major savings by not having bought these items that would have got gear that would more than have compensated by being unequivocally superior.

Ha! I appreciate the good natured reply.

Speaking of tweaks, your reports on the Degritter were helpful in my deciding to purchase one. Can't wait for the thing to arrive, especially given the rate at which I'm accumulating vinyl. Unfortunately they are delayed (which I expected).
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Let's try not to do that. In my reply I tried to point out that for quite a few people the impression is that proof already exists when in fact the science of musical understanding and the tools to measure are still woefully inadequate. In a sense we at this point are just like the architects who built many of the opera houses before Sabine formalized his basic equations between the 19th and 20th century. They did it by ear because that's really all they had. The basic challenge is that music is abstract. The abstract nature shows in the graphic interfaces we use today. For a better understanding of the challenges faced with the quantification of abstractions as it relates to sound and especially music, there is quite a bit to be picked up from this guy. He isn't a pseudo scienntist :)

https://www.ted.com/talks/charles_limb_building_the_musical_muscle

That was an excellent video Jack.
This one was the next one following:
https://www.ted.com/talks/charles_l...-b&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

Audio tweaks are almost impossible to measure with tools.
Audio inventors have a challenging and passionate job.
We probably can invent our own audio tweaks and be more satisfied with our listening perception from some of them.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
319
565
BiggestLittleCity
The problem is that the measurement tool you would use for changes in the sound would need to be RTA. Real time is very difficult to correlate simply because the vision we use is literally almost a thousand times slower per second. A snapshot won't work and obviously neither will long windows. Sh*t outa luck man. Welcome to the real world where these are used as guides in studios along with real time absolute phase displays. At this point in time the only measurements that seem to be able to make meaningful real time correlations have been the experiments monitoring brain activity. These experiments are sadly too few and far between.

Exactly, the only way I was ever able to discern a real impact on any level of increase in SQ was to do the experimentation in real time...let’s say the multiple changes were made within minutes. Not doing this in a rapid fire manner just clouded the experiment. So much was revealed after let’s say 6 months or even a year it is a education.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,625
5,432
1,278
E. England
COF, keep the faith, good things come to those who wait.

One interesting thing about tweaks (I prefer the word "ancilliaries" for cables, lines, supports etc, and "tweaks" for Entreq, Mooks, SR stuff on walls etc), is that they can be bought incrementally, meaning one gets a little vitamin shot or Viagra burst at handy intervals.

E.g. I have 14 cables ie i/c.s, spkrs cbls, pwr cords. That's 14 boosts to my sound at intervals. Now this is easy to absorb financially, and keeps pushing the endorphin buttons multiple times.

However, if I had to buy the loom all in one go, there's no doubt I might have looked at an alternative preamp or power amp.

However x2, I had searched high and low for the amps I've finally settled on, my only alternative that would significantly beat my current preamp is the next up in the line, at 50% more than the cost of the entire loom. And indeed I only became aware of it once I was well into cbls spending.

Supports again I've gone incremental ie rack to upgraded shelves to added Rollerblocks, Entreq built up one grnd cbl at a time, balanced transformer is a component in itself, but well below the cost of a new amp, power feed/consumer unit/dedicated lines/sockets are an all-in one-off install, and again well below new component prices, fuses are a tiny burst of good feeling each time one goes in. Stacore under tt is now part of the tt, not separate in its own right.

And hindsight is a marvellous science, yes I could fund a s/h pr AG Trios w BassHorns on my ancillisries spend, but it was never financially practical at the start, and ancilliaries were cumulatively building a better and better sound all the time w current gear.
 

gilles13

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2015
113
25
260
south of France
You can't demonstrate every things with science. I use acupuncture and Chinese medecine which is made with plants mineral...acupuncture can't be explained by science.
I own an acoustic revive RR 888 which is very effective at home, even non audiophile people hear the difference it makes but on one high end system I heard no difference. It's the main problem with some tweaks, not always repetitive on some systems.
 

BruceD

VIP/Donor
Dec 13, 2013
1,514
587
540
You can't demonstrate every things with science. I use acupuncture and Chinese medecine which is made with plants mineral...acupuncture can't be explained by science.
I own an acoustic revive RR 888 which is very effective at home, even non audiophile people hear the difference it makes but on one high end system I heard no difference. It's the main problem with some tweaks, not always repetitive on some systems.

Interesting observation on the RR-888 I thought its aural perception attributes applied to the Listener not the System.

BruceD
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
It's nice to see the site founder express some skepticism about high end audio tweaks.

I'm pretty sure I go even further than you do in my skepticism :)

Personally I find it impossible not to notice the similarities in how many audiophiles (and reviewers, and high end manufacturers of certain types) come to their beliefs about tweaks, with any number of pseudo sciences and dubious beliefs, be it alternative medicine, or any of the claims one would find at the local psychic fair. I'm not therefore saying that all declarations about the differences between cables, or the effects of "tweaks" in high end audio are false. But rather, the mix of dubious technical explanations with an almost purely subjective vetting method creates a subjective free-for-all where "everything makes a difference" (exactly what one would expect if the effects were mostly subjective).

For instance, despite years of claims by manufacturers and audiophiles that isolation tweaks/feet/racks alter the sound of components like CD players, pre-amps, amps etc, not once have I ever seen measurements presented showing any change to the output signal with isolation vs without isolation. E.g. if isolation cones/feet under a CD player or pre-amp or whatever, actually alters the sound, it's altering the signal at some point and this should be measurable. I'm not talking simply about measuring some reduction in vibration - e.g. if you have a CD player on sufficiently squishy or abortive material, and you apply some level of vibration around the player, I'm sure you could measure less vibration with the CD player on the feet vs off (I've measured such differences myself when making an isolation base for my Turntable). Rather, the claims are that isolation feet/devices actually change the SOUND output of the source component, or amp/pre-amp. In which case it makes sense to be asking questions like what level of ambient vibration would any such device usually encounter in the first place? Or if it is vibration created by the speakers, what level of vibration must the equipment in question be subjected to in order to show up as altering the output signal to some audible degree? How is this threshhold of audibility measured and demonstrated? And then, what type of measurements demonstrate that the isolation tweak in question reduces the *audible* vibration effects to inaudible levels?

I don't recall ever seeing any of these things demonstrated in any quantitative manner. (If someone has a link to such demonstrations, I'd love to check them out).

Same with racks or whatever vibration control application we may want to look at. It just seems to be taken for granted in much of the audiophile world that "everything makes a difference" which is just what you'd get if you leave interpreting the results only to the realm of the subjective.

Again, this isn't a claim that tweaks don't work; it's just a point that many seem based on dubious claims to begin with, and we get nothing but anecdote as "evidence" for the results. You get mostly some technical conjecture....and then anecdotes as "proof" it works. Essentially same method that fuels any number of suspicious medical nostrums and other belief systems.

Unfortunately just voicing one's own skepticism is usually seen as party crashing, and one often becomes under attack because this is seen to question the very experience of the audiophile and..."how dare you!"

Just adding my own thoughts to the mix.

Cheers!

The pseudo-technical explanations of tweaks are most of time poor and written just for marketing. Skeptics explore it to fuel their skepticism - it seems natural, but it is not an argument. This voodoo literature shows all the time, in equipment and tweaks, with the mission of getting consumer attention.

We could use the opposite view - there are some tweaks that generate easily perceptible subjective differences and we can not measure any difference. This clearly shows that the measurements are not appropriate to show these differences.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,185
13,611
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
It's nice to see the site founder express some skepticism about high end audio tweaks.

I'm pretty sure I go even further than you do in my skepticism :)

Personally I find it impossible not to notice the similarities in how many audiophiles (and reviewers, and high end manufacturers of certain types) come to their beliefs about tweaks, with any number of pseudo sciences and dubious beliefs, be it alternative medicine, or any of the claims one would find at the local psychic fair. I'm not therefore saying that all declarations about the differences between cables, or the effects of "tweaks" in high end audio are false. But rather, the mix of dubious technical explanations with an almost purely subjective vetting method creates a subjective free-for-all where "everything makes a difference" (exactly what one would expect if the effects were mostly subjective).

For instance, despite years of claims by manufacturers and audiophiles that isolation tweaks/feet/racks alter the sound of components like CD players, pre-amps, amps etc, not once have I ever seen measurements presented showing any change to the output signal with isolation vs without isolation. E.g. if isolation cones/feet under a CD player or pre-amp or whatever, actually alters the sound, it's altering the signal at some point and this should be measurable. I'm not talking simply about measuring some reduction in vibration - e.g. if you have a CD player on sufficiently squishy or abortive material, and you apply some level of vibration around the player, I'm sure you could measure less vibration with the CD player on the feet vs off (I've measured such differences myself when making an isolation base for my Turntable). Rather, the claims are that isolation feet/devices actually change the SOUND output of the source component, or amp/pre-amp. In which case it makes sense to be asking questions like what level of ambient vibration would any such device usually encounter in the first place? Or if it is vibration created by the speakers, what level of vibration must the equipment in question be subjected to in order to show up as altering the output signal to some audible degree? How is this threshhold of audibility measured and demonstrated? And then, what type of measurements demonstrate that the isolation tweak in question reduces the *audible* vibration effects to inaudible levels?

I don't recall ever seeing any of these things demonstrated in any quantitative manner. (If someone has a link to such demonstrations, I'd love to check them out).

Same with racks or whatever vibration control application we may want to look at. It just seems to be taken for granted in much of the audiophile world that "everything makes a difference" which is just what you'd get if you leave interpreting the results only to the realm of the subjective.

Again, this isn't a claim that tweaks don't work; it's just a point that many seem based on dubious claims to begin with, and we get nothing but anecdote as "evidence" for the results. You get mostly some technical conjecture....and then anecdotes as "proof" it works. Essentially same method that fuels any number of suspicious medical nostrums and other belief systems.

Unfortunately just voicing one's own skepticism is usually seen as party crashing, and one often becomes under attack because this is seen to question the very experience of the audiophile and..."how dare you!"

Just adding my own thoughts to the mix.

Cheers!

Dear Francisco,

When in this hobby do we ever demand quantitative measurements to prove what we are hearing?
 

Barry2013

VIP/Donor
Oct 12, 2013
2,307
488
418
Essex UK
You can't demonstrate every things with science. I use acupuncture and Chinese medecine which is made with plants mineral...acupuncture can't be explained by science.
I own an acoustic revive RR 888 which is very effective at home, even non audiophile people hear the difference it makes but on one high end system I heard no difference. It's the main problem with some tweaks, not always repetitive on some systems.

I heard the acoustic revive once at Munich and the difference was clearly audible.
Got quite intrigued by it but in the end did not pursue it.
Perhaps it's time to think again.
Is it possible that its failure to make any difference on the other system was the room rather than the system?
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
You can't demonstrate every things with science. I use acupuncture and Chinese medecine which is made with plants mineral...acupuncture can't be explained by science.
I own an acoustic revive RR 888 which is very effective at home, even non audiophile people hear the difference it makes but on one high end system I heard no difference. It's the main problem with some tweaks, not always repetitive on some systems.

Interesting observation on the RR-888 I thought its aural perception attributes applied to the Listener not the System.

BruceD

What is a RR-888?

Edit: @ first I thought it was an open-reel tape deck, but it couldn't be because it's a music source and not an audio tweak. So I just googled "rr888" as I just typed it. Google asked me if I meant "rr 888", I clicked on it, yes.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-can-acoustic-revive-rr-888-produce-7-83hz

I am zero familiar with that type of audio gadget, so I cannot comment anything of beneficial value, très unfortunately. Learning is my middle name.
 
Last edited:

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing