The Voice of the Theater sound...is it what we prefer over the sound of 'live' music??

DaveyF · Aug 17, 2018

Many of us grew up listening to music produced through large Altec's or JBL speakers. Additionally, many of us were exposed to music initially through the sound of the large Voice of the Theater speakers that were typically utilized at the local cinema.
I am coming to the conclusion that this initial exposure tends to 'sway' our opinion of what to our ears sounds like 'the live event'. As an ex pro-musician, i was, as very young child, introduced to music on a large one piece console..like many of us I would presume. This old console actually sounded great to my young ears, but I quickly realized that the difference between it and the friends band sound was enormous.
My point, I think it is entirely possible..having noticed various 'trends' how people prefer to describe the goal that aspire to with recreating music in their homes, that this early exposure tends to influence what they are listening for. IMHO...
IMHO, I am thinking that there are a lot of folks here who prefer what i am now going to call 'the Voice of the theater' sound. This sound requires 'dynamics' as its basic attribute...the ability to portray BIG dynamic swings. As such, I think most adherents of this sound tend to prefer the horn type speaker. OTOH, those that are not so --in the musician's world we call it attuned to that preference,tend to prefer other types of speakers...like Dynamic drivers or panels. These speakers tend to fall down a little compared to horns in one area ( again IMHO..and others)..their ability to portray the BIG dynamic swing. OTOH, IMO they also tend to be more accurate in their portrayal of image precision and delineation of depth.

BTW, to be clear, I am certainly NOT saying that one is preferable to the other, just that one is a preference...just like the other. It's all good.

The point that Peter A also questioned...is resolution the most important aspect of reproduction in our home systems also comes into play here...and so my question--is the 'Voice of the Theater' adherent actually more concerned with resolution; or are they more concerned with the Dynamic swing potential...the one that brings most everyone those goosebumps?

bonzo75 · Aug 17, 2018

How do you explain someone who grew up on boxes and never really thought of spending till he heard a panel, and thought of giving up panels after he heard VoTT types?

Also, how many horn lovers here really did grow up on VoTT- or is this a purposeful attempt to force a bias on them, and what about tone and flow in addition to dynamics? Which classical concert hall has VoTT, do you know?

MPS · Aug 17, 2018

mp3 generation actually prefer mp3 over uncompressed material. Just saying...

DaveyF · Aug 17, 2018

bonzo75 said:
How do you explain someone who grew up on boxes and never really thought of spending till he heard a panel, and thought of giving up panels after he heard VoTT types?

Also, how many horn lovers here really did grow up on VoTT- or is this a purposeful attempt to force a bias on them, and what about tone and flow in addition to dynamics? Which classical concert hall has VoTT, do you know?

I think we are talking of our earliest experiences...the ones that you mention would, I think, be typically be at a later stage of development. ( older age). How may very young children do you know who attend classical concerts as their first introduction to music...i'm sure there are a few, but I would think not that many. Maybe interesting to hear how the members ( if they actually remember) were exposed to their very first musical experience. The sound of the TV, the sound of the console, the sound at the movies..or the sound at the classical concert hall? Maybe the sound on the ear buds...that's most likely what the youngest generation would be posting, LOL. ( Like MPS stated above, as I was typing this.)

RogerD · Aug 17, 2018

When talking about the original sound in most nice cinemas in the 1950's,60's and 70's not only were they horns, but the sound tracks were on 35mm film. The best analog sound available, hence great resolution. Nothing quite like it, and probably that's what got me started in audio. Horns are not needed to get that sound...but a high quality source and system are.

morricab · Aug 17, 2018

DaveyF said:
Many of us grew up listening to music produced through large Altec's or JBL speakers. Additionally, many of us were exposed to music initially through the sound of the large Voice of the Theater speakers that were typically utilized at the local cinema.
I am coming to the conclusion that this initial exposure tends to 'sway' our opinion of what to our ears sounds like 'the live event'. As an ex pro-musician, i was, as very young child, introduced to music on a large one piece console..like many of us I would presume. This old console actually sounded great to my young ears, but I quickly realized that the difference between it and the friends band sound was enormous.
My point, I think it is entirely possible..having noticed various 'trends' how people prefer to describe the goal that aspire to with recreating music in their homes, that this early exposure tends to influence what they are listening for. IMHO...
IMHO, I am thinking that there are a lot of folks here who prefer what i am now going to call 'the Voice of the theater' sound. This sound requires 'dynamics' as its basic attribute...the ability to portray BIG dynamic swings. As such, I think most adherents of this sound tend to prefer the horn type speaker. OTOH, those that are not so --in the musician's world we call it attuned to that preference,tend to prefer other types of speakers...like Dynamic drivers or panels. These speakers tend to fall down a little compared to horns in one area ( again IMHO..and others)..their ability to portray the BIG dynamic swing. OTOH, IMO they also tend to be more accurate in their portrayal of image precision and delineation of depth.

BTW, to be clear, I am certainly NOT saying that one is preferable to the other, just that one is a preference...just like the other. It's all good.

The point that Peter A also questioned...is resolution the most important aspect of reproduction in our home systems also comes into play here...and so my question--is the 'Voice of the Theater' adherent actually more concerned with resolution; or are they more concerned with the Dynamic swing potential...the one that brings most everyone those goosebumps?

There are a lot of hoes in this hypothesis: 1) you assume most of us grew up going to see movies that had these systems. 2) That this was the majority of our music listening experience during our "formative" years. I didn't go to many movies as a child...more of a teenage thing. 3) Growing up we never heard a significant amount of live unamplified music or grew up playing instruments in bands, choirs, ensembles etc. in school, church or wherever. 4) You assume that a preference formed in childhood would not evolve or that it is a kind of reversion back to childhood preferences...that many of us not so old audiophiles didn't really have in the first place.

While theaters with good sound systems (by my time mostly JBL multichannel) could wow, it certainly didn't form my impressions of how music should sound from playback. It did shape how I would want a home theater for movies to sound though...something completely different and not to be mistaken for approaching realism in music reproduction.

Believe High Fidelity · Aug 17, 2018

I see the direction of logic in why you would think such an exposure would cause bias. I can speak personally that I grew up listening to panels and only panels as my fathers and Grandfathers preference. Like brad I also did not watch any cinema with Voice of Theaters speakers or the like. Most of it was the radio you put on the window of your car lol.

All of my brothers and myself had panels for the longest time. I heard some Cessaro Horns and never wanted anything but horns after that. Hearing a 45rpm of Shaft on a horn just blew me away.

I still have a bias towards panels as OB can only do what an OB can do. What most people find wrong with horns (on cheap or poorly built ones) like honking and other colorations is not an issue anymore. Whereas I have still yet to hear a panel that can push the amount of air and tonal weight of a horn. Dynamics sounds like a 3-4 blankets are over the speaker by comparison.

IMHO whatever sounds good to you is the best sounds no matter what anyone says. But to the topic I dont see that being accurate.

JackD201 · Aug 17, 2018

I was deep into pro audio when I was a lot younger. I set up and tore down active horn systems almost weekly. The only residual quality left inn my set of preferences from these is the enjoyment of the visceral aspect of music. Stats were what created a new paradigm for me. It was my future partner's Dad who turned me on to them via his Beveridge Model 3s in his dedicated room and his Quad 57s in their living room. Later my cousin John's Acoustat 2+2s. Much later my paradigm was expanded again by Jadis/Phil's uniquely set up Maggies. I had horns and SETs (Sierra/Lamm) in my room for a few months while my speakers were being made. During our condo living years I loved my bookshelfs for their precise imaging. I've heard very many high end systems and set up quite a few myself. I don't think there was ever a case where there wasn't something good to take away from all these experiences.

I thank my parents, siblings, cousins and friends for making me a glass half full kind of guy. I like to focus on the best parts of what I hear while still being cognizant of what the apparent shortcomings are. All my positive experiences are what continually constitute my biases and continue to chart my direction. I think that is true for all of us. I firmly believe we are all in this hobby because we are all in search of beauty.

DaveyF · Aug 17, 2018

morricab said:
There are a lot of hoes in this hypothesis: 1) you assume most of us grew up going to see movies that had these systems. 2) That this was the majority of our music listening experience during our "formative" years. I didn't go to many movies as a child...more of a teenage thing. 3) Growing up we never heard a significant amount of live unamplified music or grew up playing instruments in bands, choirs, ensembles etc. in school, church or wherever. 4) You assume that a preference formed in childhood would not evolve or that it is a kind of reversion back to childhood preferences...that many of us not so old audiophiles didn't really have in the first place.

While theaters with good sound systems (by my time mostly JBL multichannel) could wow, it certainly didn't form my impressions of how music should sound from playback. It did shape how I would want a home theater for movies to sound though...something completely different and not to be mistaken for approaching realism in music reproduction.

Actually, I’m not assuming anything. Perhaps you are, but I am not. What I am observing is what I stated above, do I assume that this applies to all listeners that prefer one sound over another...no.
As I stated, it would appear that this is the case with many listeners...all listeners that fall into the group..who knows?
But certainly I am expecting people to strongly defend their biases. That’s ok too, but perhaps I ask too much when I ask that those who are biased towards a certain type of musical portrayal, recognize that.

morricab · Aug 17, 2018

DaveyF said:
Actually, I’m not assuming anything. Perhaps you are, but I am not. What I am observing is what I stated above, do I assume that this applies to all listeners that prefer one sound over another...no.
As I stated, it would appear that this is the case with many listeners...all listeners that fall into the group..who knows?
But certainly I am expecting people to strongly defend their biases. That’s ok too, but perhaps I ask too much when I ask that those who are biased towards a certain type of musical portrayal, recognize that.

Your "observation " is not based on any facts, thus it is assumption. You know the listening history of most or even many audiophiles? That is what you are essentially claiming, Davey. Where is your survey data that shows a high percentage of audiophiles grew up listening to music on VOTT and JBL theater systems beyond the occasional Sunday matinee.

I came to horns less than 10 years ago and prior to that I was a total panel guy . I moved almost exclusively to SET amps about 13 years ago. I had big infinitys, Apogee, AudioStatic, Stax and three big pairs of Acoustats. Only the big Acoustats could move air in a somewhat realistic way compared to good horns from a pure panel. The Infinitys could move air but were hybrids with big bass towers.

Most of the "horn" guys I know never heard VOTT systems and were into other speaker types until a few years ago.

I would argue rather that there was a rediscovery of horns, despite earlier generations issues, because something fundamental they bring is missing with other technology unless very extreme in design (like 10 foot high and 3foot wide panels). The Japanese kept them alive through the 80s and 90s until we rediscovered our heritage in the west.

I look forward every year to Munich show to get to hear some golden treasure from our audio past. Sometimes it is amazing. Many people who never heard a horn before get converted once hearing a big WE speaker system from the early 30s. I see the amazement on the faces because they never, ever heard something like that before outside of a live concert.

DaveyF · Aug 18, 2018

Morricab,Please reread my OP. As I stated above, there will be people who will need to defend their biases, which is fine, but a bias it is none the less. You happen to like horns above all else, no problem with that...as they recreate music to your taste, but do they recreate it to all others taste..that might be a question that you should ask yourself.

My observation was and is exactly that...MY observation...not necessarily jiving with yours. That observation still stands as per my OP. Plus, when I am talking about Voice of the Theater speakers, I am not actually suggesting that these were the ONLY speakers that sounded this way...there are numerous others that would have the same tonal and dynamic qualities that these had...as I also posted in my OP. Unfortunately, these speakers, at least IMHO, do tend to have a family sound that leads to my theory above.

Audiophile Bill · Aug 18, 2018

My exposure to music is really very different to many as I grew up with a classically trained musician for a dad (Royal Academy in the 1960s). All my exposure was live instruments such as our grand piano at home or the plethora of other instruments him and his friends played at our house or rehearsing for concerts. We didn’t attend the cinema nor did we listen to music on a system at home as a family. Dad had one but rarely did it come on. After that I started playing from age of 5 various things and spent my childhood at classical concerts every weekend.
I think we can often vastly underestimate the actual dynamics of real instruments - I have never heard a system get anywhere near it.

zerostargeneral · Aug 18, 2018

Really?

Kindest regards,G.

bonzo75 · Aug 18, 2018

Audiophile Bill said:
My exposure to music is really very different to many as I grew up with a classically trained musician for a dad (Royal Academy in the 1960s). All my exposure was live instruments such as our grand piano at home or the plethora of other instruments him and his friends played at our house or rehearsing for concerts. We didn’t attend the cinema nor did we listen to music on a system at home as a family. Dad had one but rarely did it come on. After that I started playing from age of 5 various things and spent my childhood at classical concerts every weekend.
I think we can often vastly underestimate the actual dynamics of real instruments - I have never heard a system get anywhere near it.

I think we can safely assume 8 years with the focal maestro utopia must have nullified all that

Audiophile Bill · Aug 18, 2018

zerostargeneral said:
Really?

Kindest regards,G.

Ha well yours is as close to I ever heard General

Audiophile Bill · Aug 18, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I think we can safely assume 8 years with the focal maestro utopia must have nullified all that

I will remind you what a live trombone sounds like in a small room one time Ked. You’ll be quite shocked.

zerostargeneral · Aug 18, 2018

Dear Bill your modesty is not lost on me,however I feel compelled to share.

Your father was the head of the Royal Academy and both of you are concert level musicians.

My awful "really" served only to prompt an amount of truthful confessions.

To date you are right to imply the reproductive shortfalls of most systems.This said I feel sure that between messrs;Keller,Mayer and Viola my attempt will be very close.

Kindest regards,G.

bonzo75 · Aug 18, 2018

If you want to check his modesty ask him how much he squats

Sablon Audio · Aug 18, 2018

Bill was also a music scholar at a well known public school.

jeff1225 · Aug 18, 2018

Being 42 years old, i did not grow up listening to horns. Theaters had standard box speakers when i was a kid. My father always had a great stereo system, usually DIY box speakers or in later years Maggies. We went to see un-amplified classical and jazz music often.

The first heard i heard were Avantgardes at CES 15 years ago and i was smitten. After learning more about horns ive sought out older horn designs and enjoyed most of them. My current horns come the closest to reproducing live sound in my room. Not perfect, but the best ive had without a doubt.

I think the OP is attempting to understand why a great many of this forum enjoys what he does not.

The Voice of the Theater sound...is it what we prefer over the sound of 'live' music??

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