Do folks on WBF care about budget priced audio gear, tweaks, etc.?

the sound of Tao · Aug 14, 2018

Working with a tighter budget or a poor room seems to tend to impact more in sonic terms rather than a systems capacity to still engage musically. Wanting it all sonically does tend to drive the dollars up. A good pair of headphones and an iPhone can still connect you to the music well.

Those expensive systems that everyone says can be less than impressive or disappointing perhaps still can perform sonically quite well in terms of distortion, frequency response, low noise etc. So good technical performance but still somehow a failure to engage us in the music which is really the ultimate disappointment.

So good choice in components that work well together and system setting up and good choice in the music helps deliver the musical engagement and having the budget to buy the best and also a good room help make it possible to also deliver on the full spectrum of the sonic attributes in full scale.

So a great system well chosen and well set up in a good room playing great music delivers it all.

bonzo75 · Aug 14, 2018

PeterA said:
That is surprising. What should we make of all of your reports? Are they in the 1%?

I did not do an exact calculation to check if it was 99, 98, or 97. Of all expensive gears put together, Mike's is the only "hifi" - where expensive components come together that I liked. My other top systems are expensive because of exotic speakers. You pay high because that speaker is rare, and Henk's Apogee grands aside, are all horns. I use to like Marty's DRCed system too. The rest of my favorite systems are cheaper components smartly put together in normal rooms, like modded Logans, modded Apogees, modded Tannoys. While they might not fit the dude's budget, they are quite cheap by WBF standards In fact, I would take many multichannel systems (like audioguy or Kal Rubinson might have on this forum) over normal expensive 2-ch hifi. The Zellaton system was excellent

My reports have a lot to do with component compares, and not systems. Especially in phonos, for example, expensive phonos do sound better, and in carts they can. The component I see the most money wasted on is 1. speakers. 2. Digital, though impact on system is much less than speakers. Almost all high budget speakers are oversized...to the extent that I think as audiophiles spend more years in the hobby, they keep upgrading to the next big speaker, and soon when they are ready to make that big leap, they buy "that" speaker they have always wanted which is too oversized for their room. Ferrari on London roads.

bonzo75 · Aug 14, 2018

the sound of Tao said:
So a great system well set up in a good room delivers it all.

A 1. great system 2. well set up 3. in a good room 4. With a beautiful girl in a bikini on each speaker

Not saying it is not possible, but if one of those things don't work out, the audiophile should not delude himself he sees that girl when it is only his reflection in the polished cabinet

the sound of Tao · Aug 14, 2018

bonzo75 said:
A 1. great system 2. well set up 3. in a good room 4. With a beautiful girl in a bikini on each speaker

Not saying it is not possible, but if one of those things don't work out, the audiophile should not delude himself he sees that girl when it is only his reflection in the polished cabinet

Hehe, good for mass loading the cabinet but relatively low in WAF

cjfrbw · Aug 14, 2018

bonzo75 said:
A 1. great system 2. well set up 3. in a good room 4. With a beautiful girl in a bikini on each speaker

Not saying it is not possible, but if one of those things don't work out, the audiophile should not delude himself he sees that girl when it is only his reflection in the polished cabinet

These days, with PC culture, seeing myself as a girl in a bikini might be quite fashionable.

PeterA · Aug 14, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I did not do an exact calculation to check if it was 99, 98, or 97. Of all expensive gears put together, Mike's is the only "hifi" - where expensive components come together that I liked. My other top systems are expensive because of exotic speakers. You pay high because that speaker is rare, and Henk's Apogee grands aside, are all horns. I use to like Marty's DRCed system too. The rest of my favorite systems are cheaper components smartly put together in normal rooms, like modded Logans, modded Apogees, modded Tannoys. While they might not fit the dude's budget, they are quite cheap by WBF standards In fact, I would take many multichannel systems (like audioguy or Kal Rubinson might have on this forum) over normal expensive 2-ch hifi. The Zellaton system was excellent

My reports have a lot to do with component compares, and not systems. Especially in phonos, for example, expensive phonos do sound better, and in carts they can. The component I see the most money wasted on is 1. speakers. 2. Digital, though impact on system is much less than speakers. Almost all high budget speakers are oversized...to the extent that I think as audiophiles spend more years in the hobby, they keep upgrading to the next big speaker, and soon when they are ready to make that big leap, they buy "that" speaker they have always wanted which is too oversized for their room. Ferrari on London roads.

So if the vast majority of the gear that you have compared is in poorly set up systems in lousy environments what value are the comparisons? That says a lot about Mike’s system if it is the one expensive system that you really like

bonzo75 · Aug 14, 2018

PeterA said:
So if the vast majority of the gear that you have compared is in poorly set up systems in lousy environments what value are the comparisons? That says a lot about Mike’s system if it is the one expensive system that you really like

Comparisons are fine as long as they have consistency. Also, most of us are in this hobby and on this forum because we are curious about gear.

In fact it's better for compares if the component can be isolated. I was not able to isolate components in Mike's system, and some of them did not sound as good when heard outside his system, clearly showing why his system is so good.

twitch · Aug 14, 2018

the sound of Tao said:
So a great system well chosen and well set up in a good room playing great music delivers it all.

exactly and it doesn't need to cost a fortune either ! thus the point of 'the dude' (Gordon's) thread......... I think ?

KeithR · Aug 14, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Comparisons are fine as long as they have consistency. Also, most of us are in this hobby and on this forum because we are curious about gear.

In fact it's better for compares if the component can be isolated. I was not able to isolate components in Mike's system, and some of them did not sound as good when heard outside his system, clearly showing why his system is so good.

By 2025 you might have heard every piece of gear on the planet but still have a Bose radio at home

cjfrbw · Aug 14, 2018

KeithR said:
By 2025 you might have heard every piece of gear on the planet but still have a Bose radio at home

"Go ahead, I'll listen to your expensive system. I won't even hold it against you."

DaveC · Aug 14, 2018

Expensive gear often has higher potential even if the system setup leaves something to be desired.

However, with so many aspects of audio being less than perfectly understood and many facets of high end audio being a luxury market where "value" is a nebulous concept, it is easy to go astray...

Mosin · Aug 14, 2018

DaveC said:
<snip>many facets of high end audio being a luxury market where "value" is a nebulous concept, it is easy to go astray...

This is the WBF understatement of all time. You win a cookie!

Tango · Aug 14, 2018

Al M. said:
What about your SME 3012R arm? That's not really expensive. Is that "lower end"? I hope not, and it doesn't seem that way.

Dear Al M,

$3,500 for an arm is no lower end. Which end a product lie to depends on one’s perspective. My rich wife thinks my Bose Lifestyle is expensive. As I said before I do like expensive exclusive audio products and I have been trying many until I found ones that sound best to my ears. The 3012R is cheap comparing to other gears I own but I like the sound so I keep in my system that’s all there is to it. Not everything has to be super expensive for me. One things people with great opportunity like to do is to “been there and done that” to experience things in what they like, to make their dream real, to do whatever they are interest in even when it is extreme, and then they come back to earth.

I would also like to point out one thing. And This is not addressing to you Al M. I don’t see people with super expensive system like MikeL, AudioCrack, Steve, Christian, etc, go around saying 99% of systems at lower price point sound like crap. Somehow I hear more of the opposite. It almost sounds like if you own an expensive system but not super expensive one you are in a “cool” “sensible” “smart” system builder status who even have more golden ears than those who stupidly spend on much more expensive gears. Please, before going around saying 99% of systems regardless of price is crap, look at your own system first. Other but yourself might also say you are one of the 99%

. For me I just don’t go around saying other people’s systems, the 99%, sound like crap, because to those systems owners they are very proud of what they have and like how their systems sound. Who is it to judge when super experience audiophiles like ddk and MikeL and PeterA, etc, and famous audio designers even disagree to what they hear.

Kind regards,
Tang

DaveyF · Aug 14, 2018

Ok, so today I was talking to a fellow pro musician...he’s a professional keyboard player. We were discussing his like for the Yamaha brand of Piano, and why he wouldn’t buy a Steinway. I asked him why not, to which he answered that the Yamaha sounded great, played great and was consistent...which, according to my friend, many of the Steinways are not. Then he went on to say...if he was rich, he would definitely buy the Steinway...because he would pick out one that would sound good, play well.....and he would also have the prestige of ownership! Would it be a fundamentally better piano than the Yamaha for a lot more money...no, but the ability to gloat would be worth it for him...nothing to do with the capability of the instrument....hmmm, I wonder if there is a little bit of that in this hobby, lol.

PeterA · Aug 14, 2018

Tango said:
It almost sounds Who is it to judge when super experience audiophiles like ddk and MikeL and PeterA, etc...
Kind regards,
Tang

.

Thank you Tang but we all know that I don’t have nearly the experience that David and Mike have. Flattery will get you everywhere, but I don’t think I can offer you something that you don’t already have.

Bruce B · Aug 14, 2018

Tango said:
My rich wife thinks my Bose Lifestyle is expensive. As I said before I do like expensive exclusive audio products and I have been trying many until I found ones that sound best to my ears.

You have to acclimate them early in the relationship. When I first met my wife, she fell over backwards when I told her a power cord costs $10k.... now when I tell her something costs $10k, she doesn't even say a word!!

Now she likes AMG, she purchased her Magnepan speakers and she picked out our Can-am Spyder RT-S!!!

cjfrbw · Aug 14, 2018

Bruce B said:
You have to acclimate them early in the relationship. When I first met my wife, she fell over backwards when I told her a power cord costs $10k.... now when I tell her something costs $10k, she doesn't even say a word!!

Now she likes AMG, she purchased her Magnepan speakers and she picked out our Can-am Spyder RT-S!!!

You have despoiled a frugal woman.

cjfrbw · Aug 14, 2018

"Would it be a fundamentally better piano than the Yamaha...no, but the ability to gloat would be worth it for him...nothing to do with the capability of the instrument....hmmm, I wonder if there is a little bit of that in this hobby, lol."

Nahhhhhhhh! After all, there is honor amongst audiophiles and all that.

DaveyF · Aug 14, 2018

On the opposite side of the scale..and about to be completely sold out--so you had better get your order in before it is too late...is this piece:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/l...ional-elite-power-conditioner-ac-conditioners

A true budget priced tweak.

bonzo75 · Aug 15, 2018

PeterA said:
.

Thank you Tang but we all know that I don’t have nearly the experience that David and Mike have. Flattery will get you everywhere, but I don’t think I can offer you something that you don’t already have.

He does not have the SME V

Do folks on WBF care about budget priced audio gear, tweaks, etc.?

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