New convert to CH Precision - advice needed

Derekw14

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Aug 1, 2018
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Howdy folks - after much tribulation often in tube land, sometimes in solid state, i recently acquired a d1, c1 and two a1. To say i am impressed is an understatement: these components are changing my listening experience, and i have had pretty heady stuff over the years (notably Dartzeel 108 and 18, that I remain a fan of).
The incredible clarity, sense of directness, openness, dynamics yet also musicality and sense of limitless potential of the CHP are a game changer to my ears. The awesome build quality and sheer configurability don’t hurt either. I am already a fan, and i am not typically impressed by brands or the flavor of the month.

After some initial experimentation, i have settled with using the a1 in bridge mode (despite my Vivids B1 not being high impedance speakers), that sounds both as spacious as monaural but also more fleshy and vivid (like a single a1 does, but without the space and separation), with zero feedback and -6db of gain to use the c1 in its sweet volume spot. I routinely use USB via Roon served by a Pi Rasberry and NAS, and find it really good (notably when upconverting PCM to DSD in Roon, go figure!), if not the equal of the D1 (connected via CH link with sync i/o boards) that I reserve for more serious listening.

So... my only reservation or sense of trade off when going back to my previous tube system (Lampizator GG and EAR or Air Tight EL34 design amps) is that the CHP timbres sound a touch (and by this i mean slightly) dry, a little less suave and ‘fruity’, notably on acoustic instruments, and groove rythm perhaps sound a little less loose or expressive. I guess the precision comes at some (elevated) cost somewhere. Is this something someone else has experienced?

I have read the various posts, and am already scheming about stretching my budget further to upgrade...although funds are in finite quantity by now. What actual users of the same CHP components would recommend most, notably to procure a little more bloom and rhythmic fluidity (i am beyond satisfied with resolution, transparency, dynamics, ...):
- X1 for the C1?
- L1?
- T1?
- CHP cables?

Based on your actual listening experience, if you had only one upgrade to make, which one would it be and why? I expect that experiences and opinions will vary, so bring it on!

Thank you in advance for sharing your experience with these wonderful electronics.

Steph

PS: i guess i could also consider adding the network board, but I like Roon and its integration seems problematic. Regarding the X1, i am wondering if it pushes further the sound in the direction os space, detail and resolution, vs. adding more palpability, body, sense of ‘real’ instruments, for which I have read praises for the L1 (but adding a linestage feels a little like an overkill when the C1 with an analog board seems to already fit the bill?)
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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...agree with Steve. Congrats. I am extremely intrigued to see how many super-SUPER-heavyweight (tube-based) system owners have moved across to CH:

- Gian60 (Kondo's greatest)
- JackD201 (Lamm and all-out assault)
- Derekw14 (see here)
- Arnie Sanders (dual mono Siegfried II monos in one of my favorite systems...culminating in the the Rockport Arrakis)
- I am sure i am missing a few others...but I always sensed Gian, Jack and Arnie were suprised to see themselves moving from their SOTA tube systems to SS...and also NOT prone to 'flipping equipment'.

Looking forward to reading and watching how this thread evolves...
 

arnies

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2010
104
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Austin, TX
Congratulations Steph,

As a CH Precision owner of their phono stage, line stage and M1 amps, I would suggest that the logical next step for you is to add the X1 power supply to your C1 DAC. In my experience, when you add a dedicated X1 to any of the CH components that accept the X1, the enhancements come in the areas of more body and weight to the music (very noticeable in the mids and highs) a greater sense of ease to the music and finally an overall greater sense of presence to the performers.

As a further down the road upgrade, I would consider auditioning a CH L1 preamp as this would further enhance your listening experience. Even as good as the C1 is driving the A1 amps the addition of the L1 is better and you would definitely hear the improvement. But, I would still start with the X1 for the C1.

Hope that helps.

Arnie
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Welcome to WBF, Steph! :)

There are a lot of converts from tubes to CH. It is interesting and puzzling.

How would you articulate the costs and benefits of switching from your tubes to CH? ? If the cost is that touch of dryness you write about, what are the benefits? (I appreciate you have already given us your impressions of the benefits of the CH, but perhaps you could elaborate by comparing and contrasting more directly the CH with the tubes.)

In your view do the benefits outweigh the cost of the touch of dryness? Why?

Doesn’t that touch of dryness detract from “musicality”?
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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Congratulations Steph,

As a CH Precision owner of their phono stage, line stage and M1 amps, I would suggest that the logical next step for you is to add the X1 power supply to your C1 DAC. In my experience, when you add a dedicated X1 to any of the CH components that accept the X1, the enhancements come in the areas of more body and weight to the music (very noticeable in the mids and highs) a greater sense of ease to the music and finally an overall greater sense of presence to the performers.

As a further down the road upgrade, I would consider auditioning a CH L1 preamp as this would further enhance your listening experience. Even as good as the C1 is driving the A1 amps the addition of the L1 is better and you would definitely hear the improvement. But, I would still start with the X1 for the C1.

Hope that helps.

Arnie

Wow...that’s a major system change Arnie. Did you get rid of all the tube gear ? Same speakers?
 

Derekw14

VIP/Donor
Aug 1, 2018
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Hello Ron - what I am after as a listener is first and foremost veracity of timbres; I seek an open, fast, fluid sound with as little coloration as possible, but need to feel the intention of the musician, and the emotion. I don't want to listen to sound, I want to be engaged with music, as immersed as possible in it.

My experience (necessarily limited, but still) with solid state has often been to be uninvolved, or in some cases actually put off by sterility and "hifi" sound. Dartzeel was an exception, the 108 being the most tube like SS amplifier - and one of the most satisfying I have had. I also have fondness and respect for Gryphon, although I didn't hear them in a while and with my speakers, and remained intrigued by Vitus without going any further.

So I used tubes and consistently found that even some "modestly" priced but high quality, well designed tube electronics (whether pre, amps or even DAC) sounded more like real music to these ears, at least at an approachable budget for me, and also thinking that certain very expensive SS electronics did not quite justify their price tags...

That is until my nascent epiphany with CHP...

What I hear with these and the Vivids B1 (which seems a felicitous pairing) is both:

a) incredible clarity and resolution, like the proverbial open window into the music (sorry for this cliche, but it is so true in this case), and absolutely amazing speed and dynamics, a sense of limitless power, but without the sound becoming thicker or more aggressive or strident. The analogy that I keep returning to in my mind is like a true, powerful, very tight (German?) sportscar, a 911 turbo comes to mind. Sometimes, when listening to the CHP it gets actually almost a little scary as I feel like turning up the volume, and the system just keeps giving, until dynamics and resolution become so vivid it's almost unreal. Sorry for sounding a bit dramatic, it's the honeymoon phase I guess, but still, I am a reasonably experienced listener, and despite this it's quite a new experience to me.

b) yet at the same time, extreme refinement and a purity, a fundamental honesty in service of the music, that is delivered in all its range from the lowest to the highest note, as fast or as slow as it is played, seemingly without additions or substractions ; perhaps as you picked up in my earlier post at the cost of a touch of "dryness" (although that's not quite fair a qualification, superlative precision is more like it, like the low riding, very tight suspension of this Porsche: comfy it is not, yet it is actually perfectly suited to riding, even for long hours, and once used to it's hard to go back to a softer car. NB: I don't own a sports car, having bought CHP instead ;-).
Maybe sometimes one may yearn for a little more comfort, suppleness (notably coming from again my experience of fatiguing solid state electronics, that has made me cautious on the long term benefits of "super transparent" electronics), but at the same time it is very hard to renounce this high performance quality once you've experienced it, there is something so fundamentally right, alive, thrilling, and also very refined about the sound that keeps me returning to in eagerness and joy.

Going back to my tube system, I find intact the musicality, emotion and greater "comfort" I had grown used to (mind you it's not tubiness or euphonic colorations, I have no patience for those), but I seem to miss the superior quality, the direct, pure and powerful exhilaration that the CHP seem to procure in quite unique measure.

Hope that helps, and of course I realise these are very expensive electronics, that I am relatively new to and still adjusting to notably on their configuration, and that everyone's taste in music reproduction differs!

Steph
 
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Derekw14

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Aug 1, 2018
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I will add one more, obvious thing. Tubes ownership seduces me (those glows in the dark ...), but also creates all sorts of hassle: temptation of tube rolling (a never ending quest), biasing (although increasingly designs are solving this), heat dissipation, inevitable degradation (of the tubes) over time, need to find increasingly rare competent technicians for maintenance and repairs ... The convenience, (expected) durability and sense of confidence stemming from such very high quality solid state electronics is certainly valuable to me.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi Derek I am glad you are enjoying your CHs as we are.

I agree with Arnie that the X1 is a great addition. It is also the most cost friendly one. Word is that the T1 clock makes an even bigger difference than the X1 but costs quite a bit more. According to Thierry this surprised even him as while he expected cleaner and sweeter sound, the improvement in the foundational lower octaves was more than they had expected. As I am primarily an LP listener, I have yet to save up for the T1 and T1 clock cables.

The addition of an L1 is likewise a logical step. The C1's volume control is analog but only to an extent. At low, late night listening levels, the volume control becomes digital and will shave bits. If like me, you listen to a lot of classical music, the L1 allows you to enjoy an entire piece without having to ride the volume control.

On the initial dryness, may I offer something to try. The dryness is typically a manifestation of unoptimized signal intensity. The signal strength can be tailored by adjusting the gain settings of your A1's driver section from the front panel or your CH App via an Android device if you have networked your system already (I haven't yet). Upping the gain transfers the heavy lifting away from the C1 output stage over to the A1 but also increases image density while retaining clarity. As Gain is a factor/multiplier increasing it will also bring up whatever noise is in your signal so judicious use is recommended. It took me about a week of critical listening to determine the sweet spot for the widest range of musical content/genres. The effort I guarantee will be rewarded with sound that is not only holographic, the CH trademark, but also much more expressive as in the case of viola's, cellos, voice and woodwinds but also more impactful and visceral with brass, acoustic and electric bass, synths and of course percussions. It is most evident with speakers of sealed woofer designs where the increase in gain must be contributing to better pressure in the cabinets and aiding mechanical damping. Your meters might show a slight increase in nominal wattage output but it is nothing to worry about. You've got lots of clean power to spare.

Enjoy!!! :D
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Thank you very much, Steph, for your very thoughtful, detailed and interesting reply. It definitely was helpful to understand better your objectives in sound when you listen to music.

I am very happy for you that you seem to have found your electronics “Holy Grail”!
 

arnies

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2010
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Austin, TX
Hi Christian,

Yes, no tubes any more in my system - same speakers - Rockport Arrakis 2 (bi-amplified) with 2 CH Precision M1 amps running in active bi-amp mode. Using the dual mono CH P1 phono stage, dual mono L1 line stage and the 2 M1 amps. I did these changes one at a time and with each addition of the CH electronics the overall sound just kept getting better and better. The final step was replacing the VTL Siegfried Series 2 amps (4 mono blocks) with 2 of the CH M1 amps. I couldn’t be happier. I never thought I would move away from tubes but CH does it for me in my system.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
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Beverly Hills, CA
Hi Christian,

Yes, no tubes any more in my system - same speakers - Rockport Arrakis 2 (bi-amplified) with 2 CH Precision M1 amps running in active bi-amp mode. Using the dual mono CH P1 phono stage, dual mono L1 line stage and the 2 M1 amps. I did these changes one at a time and with each addition of the CH electronics the overall sound just kept getting better and better. The final step was replacing the VTL Siegfried Series 2 amps (4 mono blocks) with 2 of the CH M1 amps. I couldn’t be happier. I never thought I would move away from tubes but CH does it for me in my system.

That is a very interesting evolution, Arnie.

Do you feel you have sacrificed a bit of liquidity (the opposite of a touch of dryness) or musicality in any way?
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
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Northern NY
Hi Christian,

Yes, no tubes any more in my system - same speakers - Rockport Arrakis 2 (bi-amplified) with 2 CH Precision M1 amps running in active bi-amp mode. Using the dual mono CH P1 phono stage, dual mono L1 line stage and the 2 M1 amps. I did these changes one at a time and with each addition of the CH electronics the overall sound just kept getting better and better. The final step was replacing the VTL Siegfried Series 2 amps (4 mono blocks) with 2 of the CH M1 amps. I couldn’t be happier. I never thought I would move away from tubes but CH does it for me in my system.

That’s great Arnie. I may get curious and check out their phono stage at some point. Cheers !
 

Derekw14

VIP/Donor
Aug 1, 2018
52
11
123
Hi Derek I am glad you are enjoying your CHs as we are.

I agree with Arnie that the X1 is a great addition. It is also the most cost friendly one. Word is that the T1 clock makes an even bigger difference than the X1 but costs quite a bit more. According to Thierry this surprised even him as while he expected cleaner and sweeter sound, the improvement in the foundational lower octaves was more than they had expected. As I am primarily an LP listener, I have yet to save up for the T1 and T1 clock cables.

The addition of an L1 is likewise a logical step. The C1's volume control is analog but only to an extent. At low, late night listening levels, the volume control becomes digital and will shave bits. If like me, you listen to a lot of classical music, the L1 allows you to enjoy an entire piece without having to ride the volume control.

On the initial dryness, may I offer something to try. The dryness is typically a manifestation of unoptimized signal intensity. The signal strength can be tailored by adjusting the gain settings of your A1's driver section from the front panel or your CH App via an Android device if you have networked your system already (I haven't yet). Upping the gain transfers the heavy lifting away from the C1 output stage over to the A1 but also increases image density while retaining clarity. As Gain is a factor/multiplier increasing it will also bring up whatever noise is in your signal so judicious use is recommended. It took me about a week of critical listening to determine the sweet spot for the widest range of musical content/genres. The effort I guarantee will be rewarded with sound that is not only holographic, the CH trademark, but also much more expressive as in the case of viola's, cellos, voice and woodwinds but also more impactful and visceral with brass, acoustic and electric bass, synths and of course percussions. It is most evident with speakers of sealed woofer designs where the increase in gain must be contributing to better pressure in the cabinets and aiding mechanical damping. Your meters might show a slight increase in nominal wattage output but it is nothing to worry about. You've got lots of clean power to spare.

Enjoy!!! :D

Thank you Jack for your warm welcome and very helpful reply. I have noticed indeed that sound tends to come more alive and fully fleshed when pushing the volume (to say -8 to -5)? That said, i consulted CHP and their advice was to reduce (not increase) ampliifers gain to say -6db so listening is done withing the c1 optimal range, say between -15 to -5db attenuation. So if I increase the a1 gain, wouldn’t i travel the other way and risk to compromise on the c1 sweet spot and bit length? Apologies if my question is not technically soundly worded, but you probably get my drift? Thanks again for this inexpensive upgrade suggestion!
 

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
5,144
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I'm keenly interested in this thread as we have had several similar over the past year. Thanks for joining the forum and participating.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
3,525
635
1,200
CH is great stuff. I much preferred the M1 to the A1, but the cost difference is big. I recall that the M1 had a "triode with power" kinda sound and that they temp transistor that controlled the biasing was the key.

P1020089.jpg IMG_20140703_175830.jpg IMG_1690.JPG IMG_1688.jpg IMG_1683.jpg



Just a note, Dart has UPGRADED the NHB108 to a model 2 and Lampi top Dac is now the Pacific (with built-in ethernet Roon bridge). Both are on display in these threads, at a get-together at Herve's demo room with the Pac as a surprise guest:
http://www.audioshark.org/lampizator-186/pacific-sails-into-dartzeel-14768.html

and http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-amp-model-two&p=519155&viewfull=1#post519155

Please note that I own an upgraded GG1 and have the Pac on demo at the moment.

At this level, personal preferences matter as these are all top performing brands. Enjoy your new toys!
 
Last edited:

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
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Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
Howdy folks - after much tribulation often in tube land, sometimes in solid state, i recently acquired a d1, c1 and two a1. To say i am impressed is an understatement: these components are changing my listening experience, and i have had pretty heady stuff over the years (notably Dartzeel 108 and 18, that I remain a fan of).
The incredible clarity, sense of directness, openness, dynamics yet also musicality and sense of limitless potential of the CHP are a game changer to my ears. The awesome build quality and sheer configurability don’t hurt either. I am already a fan, and i am not typically impressed by brands or the flavor of the month.

After some initial experimentation, i have settled with using the a1 in bridge mode (despite my Vivids B1 not being high impedance speakers), that sounds both as spacious as monaural but also more fleshy and vivid (like a single a1 does, but without the space and separation), with zero feedback and -6db of gain to use the c1 in its sweet volume spot. I routinely use USB via Roon served by a Pi Rasberry and NAS, and find it really good (notably when upconverting PCM to DSD in Roon, go figure!), if not the equal of the D1 (connected via CH link with sync i/o boards) that I reserve for more serious listening.

So... my only reservation or sense of trade off when going back to my previous tube system (Lampizator GG and EAR or Air Tight EL34 design amps) is that the CHP timbres sound a touch (and by this i mean slightly) dry, a little less suave and ‘fruity’, notably on acoustic instruments, and groove rythm perhaps sound a little less loose or expressive. I guess the precision comes at some (elevated) cost somewhere. Is this something someone else has experienced?

I have read the various posts, and am already scheming about stretching my budget further to upgrade...although funds are in finite quantity by now. What actual users of the same CHP components would recommend most, notably to procure a little more bloom and rhythmic fluidity (i am beyond satisfied with resolution, transparency, dynamics, ...):
- X1 for the C1?
- L1?
- T1?
- CHP cables?

Based on your actual listening experience, if you had only one upgrade to make, which one would it be and why? I expect that experiences and opinions will vary, so bring it on!

Thank you in advance for sharing your experience with these wonderful electronics.

Steph

PS: i guess i could also consider adding the network board, but I like Roon and its integration seems problematic. Regarding the X1, i am wondering if it pushes further the sound in the direction os space, detail and resolution, vs. adding more palpability, body, sense of ‘real’ instruments, for which I have read praises for the L1 (but adding a linestage feels a little like an overkill when the C1 with an analog board seems to already fit the bill?)

Just curious did you try the amps in mono rather than bridged?
I use Roon and I use an a device from Sonore as the Roon end point. CH doesn't have ethernet Roon yet sadly.
I would also suggest an X-1 as the next upgrade either on the DAC or Preamp.
I know this might sound jaded since I am the Gobel distributor but the CH with our cables is just killer!
 

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