Advice in buying a Studer A80

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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there are several people who do this in Europe (Andreas Kuhn, Fabio Liberatore).

Be advised that neither of the named persons is recognized as a qualified Studer analog tape machine service technician by any former Studer factory personnel known to me.

It's sad to see postings (on this and similar forums) promulgating incorrect information about Studer. I would prefer that the unusually high technical standards that were in practice at that famed firm would today enjoy our admiration and respect.
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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dcc

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That you are considering yourself as the sole Studer expert in the world in fine by me. I won’t continue contributing to this thread. Have a good day Fred.
 
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microstrip

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I think you're missing the most important point.

Just because something was published on WBF, doesn't make it true.

What are the qualifications of the original posters to be identifying experts in Studer?




At what location and in what capacity?

Thanks.

Fred,

Although the members of Studer list - a few, including me, also participate in this forum - have access to accurate information concerning this subject you posted there, most people are not aware of the reality. Can you post here the relevant information?

IMHO the best way of avoiding pseudo-experts is releasing the complete technical information - as soon as people understand how critical the maintenance and tuning of the top Studers is they will understand who are the knowledgeable people.
 

Ron Resnick

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Fred, what actually would be very helpful would be to know the names of Studer technicians whom you respect and whom you believe to be fully competent to work on A80s and A820s and to maintain them at original Studer quality and specification levels.

Is there someone in the Pacific Northwest you can recommend?

Is there someone in Southern California you can recommend?

Is there someone on the East Coast you can recommend?

Thank you.
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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. . . most people are not aware of the reality. Can you post here the relevant information?

Hello microstrip,

A tenet of ethical behavior holds that to witness fraud and not report it, is to be a willing party to it.

So I try to report what I know. Albeit usually elsewhere, as you've indicated.

I'm only a guest here, yet I think it's a valid criticism of any essentially un-moderated forum that everyone is handed a megaphone.

Doing that seems an open invitation for the publication of untruths, of fake news. When those untruths are compounded and re-broadcast by a chorus of the uninformed, and no one stands up to correct it, thoughtful persons might become disillusioned.

Who then should bear the burden of correcting the untruths published on an un-moderated forum?

Being a whistleblower can come at a cost. Should that fall on only a single person?
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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Fred, what actually would be very helpful would be to know the names of Studer technicians. . .

Ron,

Studer Revox America (SRA) was headquartered in Nashville, Tennessee. I never worked there.

I did not personally know the Studer personnel assigned to providing technical support for the important USA east coast region.

I do know that the three, highly qualified men who had been responsible for the important Los Angeles and entire USA west coast region, all fled the company during the tumultuous Motor Columbus ownership period.

That was thirty years ago.

In my last contacts with them, they had entered into new careers, or retirement. One became a farmer in Oregon. None expressed any interest in returning to supporting old Studer hardware.
 

jeff1225

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Jan 29, 2012
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Hello microstrip,

A tenet of ethical behavior holds that to witness fraud and not report it, is to be a willing party to it.

So I try to report what I know. Albeit usually elsewhere, as you've indicated.

I'm only a guest here, yet I think it's a valid criticism of any essentially un-moderated forum that everyone is handed a megaphone.

Doing that seems an open invitation for the publication of untruths, of fake news. When those untruths are compounded and re-broadcast by a chorus of the uninformed, and no one stands up to correct it, thoughtful persons might become disillusioned.

Who then should bear the burden of correcting the untruths published on an un-moderated forum?

Being a whistleblower can come at a cost. Should that fall on only a single person?

Did you give yourself the title of industry expert. Important to know as this is an "essentially un-moderated forum."
 

yjwu

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Jun 28, 2011
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I do not own any model of A80. About a year ago I browsed this YouTube video clavichord musician Wim Winter started as the studio project.

https://youtu.be/_pWERhs4uCk

It ended with a sad story. His A80 was put together by Andreas Kuhn from Switzerland.

https://youtu.be/Sp0BGq4GD-w

I don't know whether this project was still on-going.

There must be many serious A80 users, most of them not technically oriented, who need to access a tape recorder's full capabilities.

In this case even a reliable transport was a dream hard to be made come true. Globally A80 users who had access of real STUDER experts must be very few lucky ones. Shipped their beloved A80 to US for a "done it right" service and back to their home could be cost prohibitive.

Well explained technical aspects to meticulously detail, design philosophy etc., of this legendary recorder, supported by reliable measurements by authentic REAL experts could be our last hope of guarding this art!
 
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Bruce B

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These are two of my A80 machines (I have 2 A820 machines as well). I have two 15" and two 30" machines. So far, with Fred's (and others) help in acquiring parts, they are running flawlessly.


IMG_0247.JPG
 
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Tannoyista

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Jul 19, 2018
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Very nice machines, Bruce. :)

They look smashing.

Still need to find a nice machine though... lol Grrr! ;)

I guess one which is in working condition would be better than one which isn't. I'm finding it a bit of a minefield. There are lots out there selling machines which seem to be ready for the knackers yard.
 

astrotoy

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Very nice machines, Bruce. :)

They look smashing.

Still need to find a nice machine though... lol Grrr! ;)

I guess one which is in working condition would be better than one which isn't. I'm finding it a bit of a minefield. There are lots out there selling machines which seem to be ready for the knackers yard.

For a completely refurbished, redone A80 machine at the very highest level, it looks like ATAE is the place. A year or more ago, Fred made an offer to the group to build up to three reproducers only (no record function) for $45K USD each, about half of the price of an ATAE A80 recorder. I don't know whether any of the three are still available.

Those are definitely on the high end of prices for 15ips 2 track machines, but not more than the high end of equipment featured on this website, whether MSB or DCS DACS, Magico and Wlson speakers, Constellation preamps and amps, even some cables.

What appears from the discussion are those who have found Studer A80's in not very good condition and would like to have more locally situated techs to bring the machine up to working condition at a much lower cost, although not to the level that Fred and ATAE do their restorations.

Is there a way to get closer to the quality of what ATAE does, but at a price point which opens up A80's to a wider audience?

Larry
 

Tannoyista

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Hi Larry.

Sorry, who is ATAE? - Is it Fred?

I'm new here so I'm in the dark with things but I can certainly say that I cannot afford a $45k deck... lol

My budget is okay but not huge, I'm also based in the UK of which prices may differ.

For now I'd be happy with a fully functioning deck with the premise to gradually get it fixed up to a higher standard. I'm finding it hard to even do that.
 

astrotoy

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Fred Thal's company is ATAE, Adolph Thal Audio Engineering, based in California. IIRC Adolph is Fred's first name. If you google ATAE Fred Thal you can get to their website.

Larry
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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For a completely refurbished, redone A80 machine at the very highest level, it looks like ATAE is the place.

A correction is needed here. ATAE used to refurbish A80s and A820s, but we had to stop doing that some years back when we could no longer source certain essential OEM quality parts.

So, we turned to re-manufacturing the machines instead, with the bold objective of trying to actually make them better.

This thread earlier mentioned the A80 power supply. Those familiar with that sub-assembly might appreciate why we elected to make it an outboard, rack-mounted component. Here's an old file pic of the first version, from about five years ago.

A80PowerBase.jpg

We also do the same rack-mounting for the A80 transport control electronics. When we're done, we put the re-manufactured A80 into all-new furniture and call the product the Model Two. They definitely don't end up looking like old Studers, which I'll acknowledge might be objectionable to some.

Yet, I'll argue that for performance and ease of serviceability going forward, our new machines are actually better.
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
161
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What appears from the discussion are those who have found Studer A80's in not very good condition and would like to have more locally situated techs to bring the machine up to working condition at a much lower cost, although not to the level that Fred and ATAE do their restorations.

Hello Larry. I'd say that your assessment of what today's tape renaissance driven market wants is correct.

They want a tape transport in working condition.

If I press play, will the tape move?

If the answer is yes, they will then immediately turn their attention to the repro electronics.

Recall that the tape renaissance was started by people who were suggesting that all you need is a working transport and somebody's new, outboard tape stage.

It could seem intuitively correct, especially to those who believe that the preamplifier is most responsible for a playback system's sound quality.

But it simply is not true.

They are ignoring the underlying physics of analog tape playback and the 85 / 15 rule of building a quality analog tape machine.

Eight-five percent of the cost is in building the tape transport, so that its contribution of time-base corruption of the audio program will be held at a minimum.

A servo-constant-tension tape transport can be over twenty times more complex electro-mechanically than any simple, constant angular velocity turntable used for vinyl playback. The best of these tape transports (like the A80) are extremely expensive to build. So how would anyone expect a state-of-the-art tape transport to cost some fraction of the price of a top-level turntable?

The elephant in the room are the people using salvaged old tape transports, perhaps cosmetically restored, but with readily measurable time-base corruption. Are these people really audiophiles?

I mean, if we accept that they can't hear (or somehow don't object to) the deleterious effects of a smeared and corrupted time-base, should we accept that they are somehow also hearing subtle nuances in the brand of a stage coupling capacitor used in their repro stage electronics? Personally, I'm skeptical.

Is there a way to get closer to the quality of what ATAE does, but at a price point which opens up A80's to a wider audience?

It's going to sound self-serving, but I would say no.

We know a good deal about what it takes to bring an A80 transport back to peak performance. Total re-manufacturing is required.

DSC_0331.jpg

A80s awaiting re-manufacturing at ATAE

I'll argue further that you have to employ proper measurement of the transport's time base performance, if you want any meaningful confirmation of the end result.

Absent that, you might never really know what the fabled A80 sound quality mystique is all about.

A very powerful demonstration is to listen to an old A80, and then a "new" one, using the exact same headblock and audio circuitry. So that the only difference in the comparison is the two transports. Many people, perhaps even most people, have never heard a tape transport that is not noticeably corrupting the time base of the audio signal.

Thankfully, we have several options for characterizing and quantifying the time base performance of any tape transport. Here are two, still popular instruments dating from about thirty-three years ago, in the Studer A820 era. These are still in use here at ATAE. The one on the left allows spectral analysis of the flutter components (if optionally configured). The one on the right extends the investigation into the high-band region, where scrape flutter very audibly pollutes the time base.

DSC_0246.jpg
 

Tannoyista

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2018
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115
Great Britain
www.tannoyista.com
Finally got my A80R.

Its a high speed machine 15/30 Ips which was a surprise.

Sounding great. But before its calibrated properly I'd like to change it over to CCIR as well as do some changes to the audio boards for reliability and sound performance.

The machine has been recapped to a degree but I'm sure there are other things which needed changing such as relays and the A101 parts.

I can't see any gold frako caps in the lower cards, they all look new. I've not had chance to pull the other cards yet.

Always open to recommendations for parts and suggestions.

I'll post some pics of the cards if that's okay?
 

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