Advice in buying a Studer A80

Tannoyista

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Jul 19, 2018
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Hi all.

I'm looking to buy a Studer A80 and would like some advice.

It would be a 1/4" machine I'd be looking to buy. Could anyone tell me if the RC is the one to go with or the R? I've heard the R is best sound quality.

I'm have a decent budget but so many machines out there seem way over priced and simply aren't selling, presumably because of the price.

I'd like one that has had a service and had the main capacitors done but are they difficult to replace?

Do I need to know anything else?

Many thanks in advance. I'm based in the UK
 

microstrip

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Hi all.

I'm looking to buy a Studer A80 and would like some advice.

It would be a 1/4" machine I'd be looking to buy. Could anyone tell me if the RC is the one to go with or the R? I've heard the R is best sound quality.

I'm have a decent budget but so many machines out there seem way over priced and simply aren't selling, presumably because of the price.

I'd like one that has had a service and had the main capacitors done but are they difficult to replace?

Do I need to know anything else?

Many thanks in advance. I'm based in the UK

Do you have access to a good experienced technician who can properly service a Studer A80? Electronics is not too complicated, mechanics is a real challenge.
 

dcc

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You have the same transport and the same electronics in both the R and RC (audio cards borrowed from the B62). The RC is just a more recent version in a compact configuration allowing to have a removable trolley. Both versions were initially developed for the broadcast industry.

The R comes without VU meters whilst there are RC versions with and without VU meters. There are RC MK1 and MK2 versions as well. A A80 RC VU MK2 will be more expensive than a A80 R.

Before buying the machine, get it inspected by your tech as putting back a A80 to its original specs can be expensive. Audio House has many spare parts for the A80 but they are not cheap.

This is a fantastic machine BTW.
 

microstrip

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Hi.

Thanks.

Yes I do actually. I've found someone to do all that.

I would also go on a course he runs so I can do the setup things myself.

Then you can get a cheap machine and refurbish it all - all spares are easily available in the UK. Or rely on him to choose a machine for you. Be aware that hour counters are not an indication of playing time, sometimes they were reset at service time.

Although the RC version is more recent, these machines are now so old that condition and price seem more important than being an R or an RC. Look at capstan condition - full motor refurbishment is possible but expensive. Heads will probably need relapping - look for a flat zone is not larger than 3mm.
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
161
11
123
I'm looking to buy a Studer A80 and would like some advice.

First, I commend your selection of the A80. You've chosen what many feel is the best tape machine ever designed.

In what follows, I've freely pasted-in selected snips from you and from some of the other responses to your post. These are preceded by the >

To anyone who actually understands (or can hear) the critically important contribution of the tape transport to the sound quality of an analog tape machine, the servo constant tension, precision guidance A80 is probably twenty times more desirable than an A807 or A810. (Some experts don't regard these low-cost, mass-produced machines designed for the radio station market as being real Studers.)

Bottom line is that A80s are still out there and they are definitely almost always worth acquiring. ATAE presently has thirty in our warehouse in California, awaiting re-manufacturing.

Having addressed that topic, can you please now state the reason for your purchase of a Studer A80? Are you firmly set on buying a recorder - reproducer? If so, what exactly are you planning to record? It's very common in the audiophile community to see tape recorders employed almost exclusively for playback. However, this makes very little sense, as for highest sound quality, you'll instead want a reproducer. NOT a recorder!

> RC is the one to go with or the R? I've heard the R is best sound quality

The folklore circulating about the sound quality of the many variants of A80 audio circuitry is often outrageously mis-informed and completely wrong. In my opinion.

With that said, the very earliest, quarter-inch A80 R, clearly had the best headblock architecture. Sadly, that outstanding original design was very soon compromised, when Studer's commercial customers demanded ill-advised changes based on their program recording production needs.

> had the main capacitors done but are they difficult to replace

The term "main capacitors" is commonly understood to mean the filter capacitors (for voltage smoothing and energy storage) found inside the main PSU. On the A80 PSUs these were 8mm stud mounts, in values and form factors essentially no longer manufactured today, excepting by costly special order with large minimum order quantities. (Ask me how I know this.)

Those original OEM stud-mount main PSU filter capacitors were of extreme high quality and long-life. Yet after thirty-five or forty-five years in service (or storage), the only sensible approach is total pre-emptive replacement.

> Do I need to know anything else?

Yes. Understanding the A80 is a huge subject. Try to take an A80 owner familiarization course from a real Studer expert, and not one of growing numbers of fakes who are active preying on the gullible audiophile market. Importantly, find out if the person offering you training was professionally active in A80 machine support 35 or 40 years ago, during the time when Studer was building and selling this top-of-line product. I believe there are still some living, qualified A80 experts in the UK today.

> Then you can get a cheap machine and refurbish it all - all spares are easily available in the UK.

Sorry, but this is plainly wrong. Hundreds of authentic original A80 replacement parts have been no longer available (NLA) for decades now. (Again, ask me how I know this.)

Granted, many are selling A80 "rebuild kits" (as seen on eBay for example) but these are mostly full of parts that any real expert would never want to see installed into one of these fine machines.

The same is true for the extremely critical, high-precision radial ball-bearings, that require complete replacement in any A80 after every ten years. Not because those bearings have worn out. But only because the lubricants inside them have deteriorated due to age. Yet we see vendors everywhere globally, offering what they purport to be replacement Studer bearings, when they clearly are not. One hint is seeing someone touting the popular specification of an ABEC classification grade, a US based system that Studer never even used!

Yet of equal importance, is the exact lubricant specification (grease type) and its fill quantity, which varied greatly in THE SAME MACHINE according to the bearing's specific duty.

Then, there is the critical and exacting matter of adjusting the axial pre-load force after a new bearing has been installed. (Don't understand why measuring and adjusting axial pre-load force is critical in a precision guidance tape transport? You're not alone. The vast majority of even highly experienced tape recorder technicians that have attended service training programs at ATAE, have not been able to correctly explain what axial pre-load is on their course entry exams.)

Then, following bearing replacement, all path heights must be measured and corrected to a tolerance of about one-one-hundredth of a millimeter (0.0004 inch), using Studer factory gauging.

It should be abundantly clear that A80 transport re-building is hardly a do-it-yourself undertaking. If someone tries to assert otherwise, you've probably found one of the fakes. Caveat emptor.

How do you know if your A80 transport is ruined? Assess your machine's time base performance by doing wide-band flutter analysis. (More on this below.) Contrary to tape machine servicing folklore, traditional wow and flutter meters are not sufficiently helpful to providing insight into what the transport is doing to the time base performance.

> Look at capstan condition - full motor refurbishment is possible but expensive.

"Is possible" states it rather well.

Studer's sinter-bearing capstan motors were legendary for ultra low flutter. No rebuilder today can even begin to approach that level of quality and precision. So, many do not even touch the old sinter bearings and their corresponding extreme precision polished bearing surfaces on the ultra close tolerance matched capstan shaft. A scandal is how many motor shops "fake it" by refinishing only the capstan shaft's tractive surface and then returning the cleaned motor as "reconditioned".

Again, the only right way to accurately assess the critical time base performance of a tape transport is through what tape transport flutter expert Dale Manquen (and later, Audio Precision, an instrumentation manufacturer also here in the USA) termed high-band flutter analysis. (ATAE today calls this measurement technique wide-band diagnostic flutter analysis.)
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
First, I commend your selection of the A80. You've chosen what many feel is the best tape machine ever designed.

In what follows, I've freely pasted-in selected snips from you and from some of the other responses to your post. These are preceded by the >

To anyone who actually understands (or can hear) the critically important contribution of the tape transport to the sound quality of an analog tape machine, the servo constant tension, precision guidance A80 is probably twenty times more desirable than an A807 or A810. (Some experts don't regard these low-cost, mass-produced machines designed for the radio station market as being real Studers.)

Bottom line is that A80s are still out there and they are definitely almost always worth acquiring. ATAE presently has thirty in our warehouse in California, awaiting re-manufacturing.

Having addressed that topic, can you please now state the reason for your purchase of a Studer A80? Are you firmly set on buying a recorder - reproducer? If so, what exactly are you planning to record? It's very common in the audiophile community to see tape recorders employed almost exclusively for playback. However, this makes very little sense, as for highest sound quality, you'll instead want a reproducer. NOT a recorder!

> RC is the one to go with or the R? I've heard the R is best sound quality

The folklore circulating about the sound quality of the many variants of A80 audio circuitry is often outrageously mis-informed and completely wrong. In my opinion.

With that said, the very earliest, quarter-inch A80 R, clearly had the best headblock architecture. Sadly, that outstanding original design was very soon compromised, when Studer's commercial customers demanded ill-advised changes based on their program recording production needs.

> had the main capacitors done but are they difficult to replace

The term "main capacitors" is commonly understood to mean the filter capacitors (for voltage smoothing and energy storage) found inside the main PSU. On the A80 PSUs these were 8mm stud mounts, in values and form factors essentially no longer manufactured today, excepting by costly special order with large minimum order quantities. (Ask me how I know this.)

Those original OEM stud-mount main PSU filter capacitors were of extreme high quality and long-life. Yet after thirty-five or forty-five years in service (or storage), the only sensible approach is total pre-emptive replacement.

> Do I need to know anything else?

Yes. Understanding the A80 is a huge subject. Try to take an A80 owner familiarization course from a real Studer expert, and not one of growing numbers of fakes who are active preying on the gullible audiophile market. Importantly, find out if the person offering you training was professionally active in A80 machine support 35 or 40 years ago, during the time when Studer was building and selling this top-of-line product. I believe there are still some living, qualified A80 experts in the UK today.

> Then you can get a cheap machine and refurbish it all - all spares are easily available in the UK.

Sorry, but this is plainly wrong. Hundreds of authentic original A80 replacement parts have been no longer available (NLA) for decades now. (Again, ask me how I know this.)

Granted, many are selling A80 "rebuild kits" (as seen on eBay for example) but these are mostly full of parts that any real expert would never want to see installed into one of these fine machines.

The same is true for the extremely critical, high-precision radial ball-bearings, that require complete replacement in any A80 after every ten years. Not because those bearings have worn out. But only because the lubricants inside them have deteriorated due to age. Yet we see vendors everywhere globally, offering what they purport to be replacement Studer bearings, when they clearly are not. One hint is seeing someone touting the popular specification of an ABEC classification grade, a US based system that Studer never even used!

Yet of equal importance, is the exact lubricant specification (grease type) and its fill quantity, which varied greatly in THE SAME MACHINE according to the bearing's specific duty.

Then, there is the critical and exacting matter of adjusting the axial pre-load force after a new bearing has been installed. (Don't understand why measuring and adjusting axial pre-load force is critical in a precision guidance tape transport? You're not alone. The vast majority of even highly experienced tape recorder technicians that have attended service training programs at ATAE, have not been able to correctly explain what axial pre-load is on their course entry exams.)

Then, following bearing replacement, all path heights must be measured and corrected to a tolerance of about one-one-hundredth of a millimeter (0.0004 inch), using Studer factory gauging.

It should be abundantly clear that A80 transport re-building is hardly a do-it-yourself undertaking. If someone tries to assert otherwise, you've probably found one of the fakes. Caveat emptor.

How do you know if your A80 transport is ruined? Assess your machine's time base performance by doing wide-band flutter analysis. (More on this below.) Contrary to tape machine servicing folklore, traditional wow and flutter meters are not sufficiently helpful to providing insight into what the transport is doing to the time base performance.

> Look at capstan condition - full motor refurbishment is possible but expensive.

"Is possible" states it rather well.

Studer's sinter-bearing capstan motors were legendary for ultra low flutter. No rebuilder today can even begin to approach that level of quality and precision. So, many do not even touch the old sinter bearings and their corresponding extreme precision polished bearing surfaces on the ultra close tolerance matched capstan shaft. A scandal is how many motor shops "fake it" by refinishing only the capstan shaft's tractive surface and then returning the cleaned motor as "reconditioned".

Again, the only right way to accurately assess the critical time base performance of a tape transport is through what tape transport flutter expert Dale Manquen (and later, Audio Precision, an instrumentation manufacturer also here in the USA) termed high-band flutter analysis. (ATAE today calls this measurement technique wide-band diagnostic flutter analysis.)

Fred,

Thanks for posting. Although I would agree on most of your points, even my poor A80s, amateurish serviced by myself, using selected spares commonly available in Europe, measure significantly better and sound better playing copies of master tapes than any other reel to reel machine I have compared to them. This is enough to please me and considering the expense and pleasure I got from refurbishing them I have no hesitation advising people who perhaps have similar levels of exigence to do the same.

Surely I would love to have access to the Studer A80 factory gauges - I once missed a genuine set at eBay long ago and regret it - I do my best using less accurate techniques. And my second machine will be (amateurishly ) used just as reproducer.

Perhaps I should have asked our recent member Musical_Mainline about is intentions before posting an answer - but my quick answer should also be understood as an welcome to WBF.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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That was a very informative post, Fred. Thank you!
 

Tannoyista

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2018
38
14
115
Great Britain
www.tannoyista.com
Thank you for all your advice. It's so very welcome.

Hi Fred. I'm going to be using it for recording and playback and so I would like one for that. Will anything else do? Well, yes my other choice would be an A810 but the prices of those are just as expensive and even more so in some cases. I've always wanted an A80 though.

I'd love to try 30IPS too but the R/RC versions are only 7.5/15IPS - Can't have everything though.

I have sourced an A80 but unfortunately things went wrong with it on a function test before it was delivered. It's still available so I'm going to wait and hear from the seller once he's had it repaired.

It's so difficult sourcing such a behemoth of a machine. I would have thought they were too big for people, especially the audiophile market but seems not. Everyone seems to be selling them at crazy prices and guess what, they are not selling... Hmm. Greedy?

Sure some models like the VU are more expensive and even though I would love one I feel that an A80 or A80R is more within my price bracket.

Can anyone here suggest to me any places to look or ask for such a machine within the studio community?
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Thank you for all your advice. It's so very welcome.

Hi Fred. I'm going to be using it for recording and playback and so I would like one for that. Will anything else do? Well, yes my other choice would be an A810 but the prices of those are just as expensive and even more so in some cases. I've always wanted an A80 though.

I'd love to try 30IPS too but the R/RC versions are only 7.5/15IPS - Can't have everything though.

I have sourced an A80 but unfortunately things went wrong with it on a function test before it was delivered. It's still available so I'm going to wait and hear from the seller once he's had it repaired.

It's so difficult sourcing such a behemoth of a machine. I would have thought they were too big for people, especially the audiophile market but seems not. Everyone seems to be selling them at crazy prices and guess what, they are not selling... Hmm. Greedy?

Sure some models like the VU are more expensive and even though I would love one I feel that an A80 or A80R is more within my price bracket.

Can anyone here suggest to me any places to look or ask for such a machine within the studio community?

I got two A80's from Holland and one for spares from the UK. Try googling "studer a80" restricting the domain to "nl" and if needed use google translator.

Again, IMHO better getting a great price that insisting on current performance - the A80 is modular and we can get all electronic cards at decent prices. For electronic cards keep an eye on ebay.fr - I already have enough, I can now reveal my sources! :)

For example, today someone from UK is selling the set of the 7 control cards in working condition at eBay.
 
Last edited:

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
161
11
123
I'm going to be using it for recording and playback and so I would like one for that.

Interesting. What are you recording? (Or perhaps it's none of my business. So never mind.)

> my other choice would be an A810 but the prices of those are just as expensive

That's insane. An A80 cost over fifteen times more to manufacture than did an A810.

As recently as ten years ago, A810s were being given away, or even thrown away, and in very large numbers. This was because they essentially have no value today.

Very much unlike the case with something as jaw-dropping impressive and substantial as an A80.

> I'd love to try 30IPS too but the R/RC versions are only 7.5/15IPS

That's incorrect. There were definitely 15 and 30 in/s A80Rs and RCs.

Where are you getting your Studer product knowledge?

No offense intend, but the audiophile tape forums (this one and several others) are notorious for spreading factually wrong information about Studer machines and about analog audio tape science and technology in general. You are reporting a rise in the prices of A80s. Elsewhere, we've been reporting on a rise in the proliferation of fake A80 (and A820) experts. There's probably a direct correlation, a connection.

> I'm going to wait and hear from the seller once he's had it repaired.

You might be better off if you found someone truly knowledgeable about the Studer A80 and asked them to assist you, before you select and buy one.

> Can anyone here suggest to me any places to look or ask for such a machine within the studio community?

The studio community that once existed is long gone. People with analog tape machines today are likely the third, forth, or fifth owner of these machines. You might also ask why they would be selling an A80? Find your trusted expert before you buy one.
 

ALF

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2012
531
243
955
Southwest
Fred is the expert and freely shares his experiences...

I am very grateful that he was able to source me a wonderful Studer A820...I am the second owner, the first was also a private non-commercial owner. So, I have essentially NOS Studer electronics; delicious, and no need to chase and dance the external tape pre jig...plus, I can record occasionally:).

If you are interested in strictly playback-REPODUCER-SOTA...ATAE has what you are needing.

Full Disclosure: I’m a Fan!!

Thank you Fred and ATAE!

Cheers!
Alan
 

Tannoyista

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2018
38
14
115
Great Britain
www.tannoyista.com
Interesting. What are you recording? (Or perhaps it's none of my business. So never mind.)

> my other choice would be an A810 but the prices of those are just as expensive

That's insane. An A80 cost over fifteen times more to manufacture than did an A810.

As recently as ten years ago, A810s were being given away, or even thrown away, and in very large numbers. This was because they essentially have no value today.

Very much unlike the case with something as jaw-dropping impressive and substantial as an A80.

> I'd love to try 30IPS too but the R/RC versions are only 7.5/15IPS

That's incorrect. There were definitely 15 and 30 in/s A80Rs and RCs.

Where are you getting your Studer product knowledge?

No offense intend, but the audiophile tape forums (this one and several others) are notorious for spreading factually wrong information about Studer machines and about analog audio tape science and technology in general. You are reporting a rise in the prices of A80s. Elsewhere, we've been reporting on a rise in the proliferation of fake A80 (and A820) experts. There's probably a direct correlation, a connection.

> I'm going to wait and hear from the seller once he's had it repaired.

You might be better off if you found someone truly knowledgeable about the Studer A80 and asked them to assist you, before you select and buy one.

> Can anyone here suggest to me any places to look or ask for such a machine within the studio community?

The studio community that once existed is long gone. People with analog tape machines today are likely the third, forth, or fifth owner of these machines. You might also ask why they would be selling an A80? Find your trusted expert before you buy one.

Hi Fred.

First of all I really appreciate your input on this. I needs as much as possible.

I don't mean to spread incorrect information, I'm trying to get to the truth in regards to these machines so as I said, I'm very happy you have come in to the thread. :)

I record my own work, normally folk/psyche stuff. I'd like to use it for that as well as bumping down effects. I want to use tape, it just feels right. Many think I'm mad, maybe I am in this digital world. LOL.

My studer knowledge is mostly from reading other forums and so I'm happy to be corrected on aspects of it by an expert.

The guy I've found has been working on Studers since the 1980's and still services them and other models regularly so I've got total confidence in him although I've only been in touch with him a few times since he's busy doing other aspects of sound equipment. I've not asked him too many questions because he's so busy.

I've only seen R's and RC's at 7 and 15IPS so I'm just going on what I've seen. Interesting to know they did 30IPS versions too. Thanks.

The A80 I found didn't pass it's function test prior to delivery. The left had tape motor had stopped working probably which was put down to it probably being caused in transit. The seller said it can be fixed by his tech which sounds promising. But my tech said that it should be reduced in price quite substantially because of the fault because without seeing/testing it first hand it's a gamble.

What I don't want to do is buy a total wreck.. lol

Would you be able to assist me in finding such a machine?
 
Last edited:

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
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As usuallyin WBF, no one is addressing the key point - the effective cost of these reel to reel machines, including machines, refurbishing and maintenance, and what people want to spend.

Although I would love to own a Fred Thal rebuilt machine, I am sure that it would cost at less ten times more than what I have spent my modest A80's. I am an audiophile with tube equipment, not a professional dubbing tapes or transcribing precious recordings.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
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Portugal
(...) My studer knowledge is mostly from reading other forums and so I'm happy to be corrected on aspects of it by an expert.

The guy I've found has been working on Studers since the 1980's and still services them and other models regularly so I've got total confidence in him although I've only been in touch with him a few times since he's busy doing other aspects of sound equipment. I've not asked him too many questions because he's so busy. (...)

Sorry to tell, IMHO if the guy is so busy doing other aspects of sound equipment you should be very careful. Refurbishing a Studer A80 is not a something to be taken lightly - it needs plenty of time and dedication.
 

dcc

VIP/Donor
Nov 4, 2012
650
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As usuallyin WBF, no one is addressing the key point - the effective cost of these reel to reel machines, including machines, refurbishing and maintenance, and what people want to spend.

Although I would love to own a Fred Thal rebuilt machine, I am sure that it would cost at less ten times more than what I have spent my modest A80's. I am an audiophile with tube equipment, not a professional dubbing tapes or transcribing precious recordings.

Fully agree on that one.

Though my A80 RC was in fairly good shape (I bought it from a studio that was stopping analog recordings), my tech who is anal at bringing A80s back to their orignal specs, spent a considerable number of hours to get it back to its full glory not mentioning the cost of the spare parts sourced from Audio House. It was not cheap but worth every penny.

It is not a «reproducer» and I don’t care as I am just an audiophile. I don’t have precious original masters but direct and production copies and once I am starting playing tapes, it becomes difficult to switch back to the turntable or digital.

I have seen many audio cards on Ebay that are just a disgrace. I would be very cautious on that front unless there is a tech who will reprocess the cards but this comes at a price.

For sourcing a fully operational A80 with a warranty, there are several people who do this in Europe (Andreas Kuhn, Fabio Liberatore). I don’t have commercial ties with them.
 

Tannoyista

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2018
38
14
115
Great Britain
www.tannoyista.com
Thanks guys.

I've no doubt in the tech I've found. He's a professional technician who has been fixing and maintaining Studers (especially the A80) since the 1980's so I can only go on his experience. I'll see how it goes.

I just hope I can find a machine. It's taking so long it's becoming rather tiresome.
 
Last edited:

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
161
11
123
I've only seen R's and RC's at 7 and 15IPS so I'm just going on what I've seen. Interesting to know they did 30IPS versions too.

An example from the ATAE collection in California

DSC_0086.jpg
 

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