Going Big class A?

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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I have been enjoying my time with the Lamm m1.2 since i changed the bias settings, which also gives me more power!

wondering about going bigger given the size of my room

Vitus sm103s or Pass labs 200.5 or newer 600.8 which i have heard come closest to xs series?

I mainly listen to classical and jazz
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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How big is your room and how large are your speakers,how efficient.
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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52 feet by 20 ft 88db 4ohm
I would like to know the size of your speakers or how much air they can push.
My room is 20x16 but opens into a 50x35 space. I use 5 amplifiers at 4500w
You can definitely use more power if you want.IMHO
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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I have been enjoying my time with the Lamm m1.2 since i changed the bias settings, which also gives me more power!

wondering about going bigger given the size of my room

Vitus sm103s or Pass labs 200.5 or newer 600.8 which i have heard come closest to xs series?

I mainly listen to classical and jazz

Hi Andrew, none of these alternatives sound as good as your Lamms, what speakers do you have that require more power? There’s always the M2.2 if more power is what you want. But that’s my very biased opinion and I don’t think YMMV :)!

david
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Yes David you might be right

Was just testing the water though ;)
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Depending on how your speakers react to substantially more power, i would guess you may find trade-offs relative to your Lamms. ie, you may find on large-scale works, at volume, or the dynamic range within a piece are substantially 'freer'. 88db and 4ohms are only 2 specs, but if the speakers are a beast to drive...lots of power will i suspect be an interesting change that has these 'freer'/expansive' attributes...on the other hand, the QUALITY of the power you have is by all accounts exceptional (nuance, microdetail, balance...and no doubt an excellent level of scale up to a [very high?] level, and you may well find you lose this by going with 'just a behemoth'.

I suppose you could always venture into the D'Agostino Relentless Monoblock territory, or the Vitus Masterpiece Reference Monos, Boulder 3050/3060 or Gryphon Mephisto mono territory...but that literally comes with a price too, namely a 6-figure one which is simply about how much you want to pay for power! ;)
 

microstrip

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PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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I have been enjoying my time with the Lamm m1.2 since i changed the bias settings, which also gives me more power!

wondering about going bigger given the size of my room

Vitus sm103s or Pass labs 200.5 or newer 600.8 which i have heard come closest to xs series?

I mainly listen to classical and jazz

What do you feel you are missing with the Lamm m1.2 that makes you consider alternatives?

And I am intrigued by your comment about the 600.8 being closest to the XS. Someone told me that the .8 series was a response to the "sound" of the Solution, Constellation and other newer solid state designs. I have no basis for knowing as I have not compared them. I heard the XS150 a few times in a familiar system and I think it combines the best attributes of the .5 and .8, rending the entire note in a complete, natural, and convincing way. Reno HiFi told me that the XA160.8 is about 80% of the sound quality of the XS 150. I did not ask them about the 600.8.
 
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microstrip

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What do you feel you are missing with the Lamm m1.2 that makes you consider alternatives?


Probably a Lamm preamplfier ... I only fully appreciated the capabilities of the M1.2 ref after I got the L2 ref.

I will not say that it is a perfect or universal combo - but is really a fantastic way of enjoying music. Probably it does not immediately impress friends as much as other also great electronics.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Canberra Australia
What do you feel you are missing with the Lamm m1.2 that makes you consider alternatives?

And I am intrigued by your comment about the 600.8 being closest to the XS. Someone told me that the .8 series was a response to the "sound" of the Solution, Constellation and other newer solid state designs. I have no basis for knowing as I have not compared them. I heard the XS150 a few times in a familiar system and I think it combines the best attributes of the .5 and .8, rending the entire note in a complete, natural, and convincing way. Reno HiFi told me that the XA160.8 is about 80% of the sound quality of the XS 150. I did not ask them about the 600.8.

It’s seems the Xs combines attiributes of .5 and .8

A reviewer who had the xs said the 600.8 came closest, though another said it was the 200.8

I have no experience with Pass labs, but the power of the 600.8 and that comment stimulated my interest hence why I am asking from experts like you Peter :)
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 11, 2013
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http://www.lammindustries.com/PRODUCTS/M12descr.html
Lamm actually posts correctly what goes on in amp specs a rare finding
There is no SS class A amp all are class A only to a point and class A/B after
The amount of watts we need is not truly depicted in specs and must be voiced to your speakers , room , listening volume
A good guess is your amps currently clip but you’re used to it.
Class ratings are good in that you know where the amp is biased where class A is sweet but lacks jump class A/B jumps
All amps go into class A/B at some point and playing your music gives you details where.
The fact that Lamm adjusts the bias for low z loads is a clue to the needs amps must be changed to meet the needs , it does not mean it can be all you need though.
Google clipping and how to hear it this yields what you need in looking at a bigger amp as well.
Playing lower helps where the amp clips and keeps the amp in class A longer but dynamics are far more at play then an amps wattage ratings will show.
As for the sound of bigger amps over smaller that is complex and again should be heard in your setup.
One thing you may try is borough an older Krell FPG series one that has had the caps replaced
450 or even better a 650
The sound of it is not just what your listening for , it’s also control
Control yields clean dynamics that have the tiny details that are lost as an amp goes twards clipping way before it acatually clips.
I used a few amps in my setup before I broke down to buy what i have.
In getting there an audio bud helped me mod an amp I had
The results were striking to say the least it’s how I learned of what i posted above
While I get the theory of amps learning what to listen for is complex and at some point I had to admit to my amps short comings. Most will get insulted with my post but in truth it’s not meant to be so. I was you guys and still am but when someone opens a door that we see it becomes obvious we have our own prejudices that keep us where we are. Once we remove them by admission we then can move onto better sound that does not yield false dynamics or shouting.
 
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awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Hi Al

Agree totally about your point about class A specifications
Even the needles on the Pass lab amps I believe indicate when the amplifiers move out of class A

I had thought about the newer krell amps like the evolution series but not a lot of feedback on them
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 11, 2013
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I can ask three buds to get an honest view I have nkt heeed them.
One on here you can ask is mike L that guy has put many hours into his setup and knows much more than I ever will and has own d many top tier amps. Old and new but the amp pool for me is shallow. Amps I considered of old were the no 33 no33H krell fpg Mcx 650
Indirectly mike L helped pick my amps.
You may want to try a used refurbished one bought at a good price that can be resold. Your Lamms from what I read are very good amps. And it may be best to try used to get a feel for what they may be lacking that’s maybe. A used 33H is cheap enough to try out
And of redone is a great amp. Again a try also someone posted of a new more powerful amp by Lamm too.
Amps need the right preamp too. In my quest I was using my msb stack as my preamp and it was great until I got my no 26 that exposed it for its lacking in dynamics. The pre was only 3k used not much in hi end right but worth thousands more it the doors it opened. I make severs for myself ultra all out ones. Just the old Aragon and then a good preamp exposed many parts of my setup. This allowed me to greatly improve my severs.
Having your choice in your room is a must in my world. One never knows until it’s there what better may be had. One amp i thought about was golmund even dart mono blocks. The point is an amp must be able to deal with your speakers and what you Listen to in your room. While my speakers are amp killers they all played to some level
But not all played to there potential. This is key for your next amp.
The man who schooled me says I am not allowed to say it can’t get any better anymore lol. Too many times I felt I was done.
I think mike L may add much to this quest for you. If ok I’ll pm you what I find out about evo series

Best of luck to you.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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http://www.lammindustries.com/PRODUCTS/M12descr.html
Lamm actually posts correctly what goes on in amp specs a rare finding
There is no SS class A amp all are class A only to a point and class A/B after
The amount of watts we need is not truly depicted in specs and must be voiced to your speakers , room , listening volume
A good guess is your amps currently clip but you’re used to it.
Class ratings are good in that you know where the amp is biased where class A is sweet but lacks jump class A/B jumps
All amps go into class A/B at some point and playing your music gives you details where.
The fact that Lamm adjusts the bias for low z loads is a clue to the needs amps must be changed to meet the needs , it does not mean it can be all you need though.
Google clipping and how to hear it this yields what you need in looking at a bigger amp as well.
Playing lower helps where the amp clips and keeps the amp in class A longer but dynamics are far more at play then an amps wattage ratings will show.
As for the sound of bigger amps over smaller that is complex and again should be heard in your setup.
One thing you may try is borough an older Krell FPG series one that has had the caps replaced
450 or even better a 650
The sound of it is not just what your listening for , it’s also control
Control yields clean dynamics that have the tiny details that are lost as an amp goes twards clipping way before it acatually clips.
I used a few amps in my setup before I broke down to buy what i have.
In getting there an audio bud helped me mod an amp I had
The results were striking to say the least it’s how I learned of what i posted above
While I get the theory of amps learning what to listen for is complex and at some point I had to admit to my amps short comings. Most will get insulted with my post but in truth it’s not meant to be so. I was you guys and still am but when someone opens a door that we see it becomes obvious we have our own prejudices that keep us where we are. Once we remove them by admission we then can move onto better sound that does not yield false dynamics or shouting.

No, I will not feel insulted with your post, but must say that it is technically wrong in some aspects and contains some inaccuracies.

You can not debate class A omitting the impedance of the load. It is possible to have an amplifier that is class A until clipping.

Krell FPB's were sliding class A, not pure class A, I owned several of them, even the 650MCX monoblock.

BTW, some amplifiers, such as the DartZeel NH108 change the voltage of the power supply for low value loads. As far as I could see from the shown measurements the Lamm M1.2 ref does the same. We can easily calculate the bias currents from the data shown in the Lamm site.
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 11, 2013
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Micro I did not mean to say imp does not effect class operation of my post says this I’ll correct it.
Some amp auto bias and krell is one bit all amps that are SS do go to class a at times. Keep in mind it’s not just playing music that’s not exceeding specs that may cause it
Dynamics need hundreds of times the wattage hence class ab is a fact.
Dart zeel has a digital display for this.
To say an amp is pure class A is an error and is used to mislead all of us from the makers
It’s a advertisement word made up. Now given an amp that has a higher class reting needs a much larger psu but still all are class AB and all amps clip at some point even if on a test bench.
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 11, 2013
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Here is a bit more info class is slow but delicate so good on soft low volume passages in classical but all genre
Now of your amp is too far into class A when faster music starts it’s slow less dynamic
Class AB has jump it’s why am amps class change needs to suite the needs of the setup and what we play.
My no 33 idle at 9 amps each that’s a lot of class A watts
But since my speakers are nom 4 but really below 2 at times they move mine out of class A sooner
Take my amps ona very high eff setup that’s 8 ohms they are slow not as dynamic
I do play loud so I need plenty of reserve power
My amps can deliver 60 amps into 1 ohm continues and have there own regen inside. A truly working marvel that pounds the caps inside. But yields dynamics that you feel in your chest 16 feet back. Yet play soft passages with immense details and suppleness
While there are better amps made now they are legacy amps playing legacy speakers
Into my legacy old ears lol.
 

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