Proper Set Up Required for GREAT Sound. Agreed by All! But is it Improper Setup or Wrong Taste?

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
I think one of the few things ALL audiophiles agree on is that proper setup of a system is required for GREAT sound.

Yet some people will have the speakers into the room more, while others will have them closer to walls for more or less bass...Some may toe their speakers in, others won't... Some will spread them out for a larger stage, while others will bring them in...Some will push the chair in for near field, while others will push the chair beyond the equilateral triangle....etc.

So at what point does tweaking the setup (and listening position) to taste and preference result in an improper setup? And if we don't like a system, is it really due to improper setup or, ultimately, due to taste?
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
So who's got the right taste? :p Some biases just run too deep in some people. To them, what others do might always be wrong no matter what! :D
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Proper setup usually includes:

1) acoustic treatments in the right places - usually scattering devices between and behind the speakers and HF absorbing devices at the side-wall reflection points, as well as bass traps being helpful in some situations

2) speaker positioning and toe-in - this one is critical to integrating the speakers to the room. Even slight repositioning can make a big difference.

3) sometimes electronic EQ can be helpful - reducing room bass resonances or compensating for speaker crossover imperfections can be beneficial.

4) changing the listening position - if you have a deep room, then it is likely that a more mid location is best. If the room is not deep, then backwall can be best.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

twitch

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2010
594
236
1,605
SE Pa
Proper setup usually includes:

1) acoustic treatments in the right places - usually scattering devices between and behind the speakers and HF absorbing devices at the side-wall reflection points, as well as bass traps being helpful in some situations

2) speaker positioning and toe-in - this one is critical to integrating the speakers to the room. Even slight repositioning can make a big difference.

3) sometimes electronic EQ can be helpful - reducing room bass resonances or compensating for speaker crossover imperfections can be beneficial.

4) changing the listening position - if you have a deep room, then it is likely that a more mid location is best. If the room is not deep, then backwall can be best.

I agree with Steve but will add speakers never sound best up against a wall. The only way to create depth and a 3 dimensional soundstage is to bring them into the room. As for the listening position, never is it good to have your back against the wall.
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Lol
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
I agree with Steve but will add speakers never sound best up against a wall. The only way to create depth and a 3 dimensional soundstage is to bring them into the room. As for the listening position, never is it good to have your back against the wall.

I have never been in such rooms, but some professional studios use speakers built in the walls, and designers claim that these systems have depth and 3D. See this old WBF thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15365-Speaker-distance-from-front-wall-audiophile-vs-studio&p=278897&viewfull=1#post278897
 

Attachments

  • a1.jpg
    a1.jpg
    340.5 KB · Views: 363

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,468
11,365
4,410
I have never been in such rooms, but some professional studios use speakers built in the walls, and designers claim that these systems have depth and 3D. See this old WBF thread

all such comments are relative.

depth and 3D.......relative to what other specific speaker set-up? mid-fi or boom box from their youth?

pro audio guys really have no clue on this stuff. not to be confused with reality at all, just the actual artifacts of depth and 3D.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
all such comments are relative.

depth and 3D.......relative to what other specific speaker set-up? mid-fi or boom box from their youth?

pro audio guys really have no clue on this stuff. not to be confused with reality at all, just the actual artifacts of depth and 3D.

Mike,

I can assure you that Philip Newell http://philipnewell.net/ , the designer of the room shown in the photo I posted is not using mid-fi or boom box from his youth as his reference. He was a contributor to Hifi Critic, (Martin Colloms high-end magazine) and even posted an extremely well though article explaining why in his opinion speakers cables sounded different - but yes, I did not follow his advice to solve the unsolvable problem - going active!
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,286
2,958
1,360
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
all such comments are relative.

depth and 3D.......relative to what other specific speaker set-up? mid-fi or boom box from their youth?

pro audio guys really have no clue on this stuff. not to be confused with reality at all, just the actual artifacts of depth and 3D.
Could not agree more!!!!
Recording studios are not for the end listeners prospective rather to listen usually in the near field for errors . For those who have never been in one they would find it a horror.
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,286
2,958
1,360
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
I think one of the few things ALL audiophiles agree on is that proper setup of a system is required for GREAT sound.

Yet some people will have the speakers into the room more, while others will have them closer to walls for more or less bass...Some may toe their speakers in, others won't... Some will spread them out for a larger stage, while others will bring them in...Some will push the chair in for near field, while others will push the chair beyond the equilateral triangle....etc.

So at what point does tweaking the setup (and listening position) to taste and preference result in an improper setup? And if we don't like a system, is it really due to improper setup or, ultimately, due to taste?

I think that you are mixing two different subjects here.
Different speakers/systems do sound different and there lies the taste issue in what one might prefer. We all recognize the difference between say a large cone speaker and an electrostatic for example and there the choice will be a preference in what the buyer wants.
The set up however is a whole other topic, its not taste and in my personal experience there is no "taste" in set up. Its either in the correct position in the room or its not. I see way to many systems that are improperly set up and then the listener searching through changing gear and tweeks to try to fix what was inherently wrong from the outset.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
I think that you are mixing two different subjects here.
Different speakers/systems do sound different and there lies the taste issue in what one might prefer. We all recognize the difference between say a large cone speaker and an electrostatic for example and there the choice will be a preference in what the buyer wants.
The set up however is a whole other topic, its not taste and in my personal experience there is no "taste" in set up. Its either in the correct position in the room or its not. I see way to many systems that are improperly set up and then the listener searching through changing gear and tweeks to try to fix what was inherently wrong from the outset.

Nice post, Elliot. One will not know the true potential of his current system if it is not properly set up within his room. I have found that there are gross set up issues, but once the speaker position and orientation, listener's seat, and room treatment are more or less sorted out, then very tiny changes to speaker toe in, tilt, separation and distance from walls can be a matter of taste because they can be adjusted for a slightly different presentation. I am talking about minute changes which benefit from precise measurements with laser pointers, etc.
 

twitch

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2010
594
236
1,605
SE Pa
I think that you are mixing two different subjects here.
Different speakers/systems do sound different and there lies the taste issue in what one might prefer. We all recognize the difference between say a large cone speaker and an electrostatic for example and there the choice will be a preference in what the buyer wants.
The set up however is a whole other topic, its not taste and in my personal experience there is no "taste" in set up. Its either in the correct position in the room or its not. I see way to many systems that are improperly set up and then the listener searching through changing gear and tweeks to try to fix what was inherently wrong from the outset.

Nice post, Elliot. One will not know the true potential of his current system if it is not properly set up within his room. I have found that there are gross set up issues, but once the speaker position and orientation, listener's seat, and room treatment are more or less sorted out, then very tiny changes to speaker toe in, tilt, separation and distance from walls can be a matter of taste because they can be adjusted for a slightly different presentation. I am talking about minute changes which benefit from precise measurements with laser pointers, etc.

agreed with both posts, that was more or less what I was trying to convey in my initial post, albeit in a 'macro light'. As for speakers in the wall in front of a mixing board, I don't think that is relevant to ones home listening room.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,468
11,365
4,410
Mike,

I can assure you that Philip Newell http://philipnewell.net/ , the designer of the room shown in the photo I posted is not using mid-fi or boom box from his youth as his reference. He was a contributor to Hifi Critic, (Martin Colloms high-end magazine) and even posted an extremely well though article explaining why in his opinion speakers cables sounded different - but yes, I did not follow his advice to solve the unsolvable problem - going active!

well....er…...my room designer also has made his professional living designing mastering studios. they are mostly desiring different attributes than a hifi listening room and so the approach is different.

like comparing a recording studio or concert hall (which, when recording simply with natural ambience, are more similar to a hifi listening room) to the mastering/mixing room.

and i'm generalizing here, there are exceptions with pro audio guys. I know Bruce Brown certainly uses a room with a great soundstage for his mastering. but that is the exception. but his record label customer is not mainstream either.
 
Last edited:

Brucemck2

Member Sponsor
May 10, 2010
426
102
1,598
Houston area
all such comments are relative.

depth and 3D.......relative to what other specific speaker set-up? mid-fi or boom box from their youth?

pro audio guys really have no clue on this stuff. not to be confused with reality at all, just the actual artifacts of depth and 3D.

Baffle wall mounting can be highly effective and can generate terrific 3D imaging. Regular speakers pushed up against a wall are a different story entirely.
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,286
2,958
1,360
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
Nice post, Elliot. One will not know the true potential of his current system if it is not properly set up within his room. I have found that there are gross set up issues, but once the speaker position and orientation, listener's seat, and room treatment are more or less sorted out, then very tiny changes to speaker toe in, tilt, separation and distance from walls can be a matter of taste because they can be adjusted for a slightly different presentation. I am talking about minute changes which benefit from precise measurements with laser pointers, etc.

Thank you first of all. Thats still part of a correct set up.
If the speakers are not placed properly in the room then everything after that is at best a band aid. I have a lot of years invested in this Industry and I see people looking for the SILVER Bullet component or gizmo to make the system magical.
The silver bullet is find someone who actually knows how to set up a system if you yourself can't .
Pay thousands for gear and nothing for expertise.
Would you tune your own high performance car?Most like myself are unable
Tune your piano? no me
take ingredients and cook like a three star Michelin Chef? Nope
But anyone with an AM Ex card and some gear is a set up expert!
Nonsense :)
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,682
4,470
963
Greater Boston
But anyone with an AM Ex card and some gear is a set up expert!
Nonsense :)

True. It has taken the input of more experienced friends, lots of time for speaker set-up, and years of tinkering with acoustics and learning along the way to get my sound right. And I am not even done yet.

Lowly experiments with carpet and sound panels are less sexy than acquiring the latest shiny gear, that's for sure. But they may well be more conducive to happy listening.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
There are thousands of classical recordings made that test the limits of system setups. Only time,experience,and experimentation will tell you when the system is setup correctly. Most modern recordings are not the fault of poor sound.
Setup is important,but uncompressing the audio signal and increasing speaker dispersion will effect the SQ more and that will make the setup easier.
 
Last edited:

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) Lowly experiments with carpet and sound panels are less sexy than acquiring the latest shiny gear, that's for sure. But they may well be more conducive to happy listening.

Apples versus oranges. No carpet or sound panels will give you what some shiny gear can give you.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,468
11,365
4,410
Apples versus oranges. No carpet or sound panels will give you what some shiny gear can give you.

+1.

if the source, signal path, and speakers don't bring the resolution and complete musical truth, the perfect room, and all the acoustical perfection in the world will not improve those issues. first things first. garbage in, garbage out.

yet agree that improving acoustics is comparatively almost free (compared to SOTA shiny gear) in terms of dollar cost assuming the bones of the room are reasonable.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,682
4,470
963
Greater Boston
Apples versus oranges. No carpet or sound panels will give you what some shiny gear can give you.

This is not what I meant. Isn't that obvious?
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing