End game pre amp + amp upgrade

microstrip · Jun 27, 2018

audioguy said:
My position as well. While I am not suggesting all amps sound the same, I am suggesting the differences between great amps continue to diminish - at least in comparison to other parts of the listening chain. If I were trying to make the most improvement in my system with the greatest return, 98% of my effort would focus on room acoustics/treatment and speakers, in that order.

Clearly YMMV.

Surely OMMV, considering your interests are mainly in AV, not in stereo reproduction. Great theater room and system, BTW.

I feel that although is some sense differences diminish as characteristic coloration of brands is reduced, matching becomes much more critical.

SuperDave · Jun 27, 2018

audioguy said:
My position as well. While I am not suggesting all amps sound the same, I am suggesting the differences between great amps continue to diminish - at least in comparison to other parts of the listening chain. If I were trying to make the most improvement in my system with the greatest return, 98% of my effort would focus on room acoustics/treatment and speakers, in that order.

Clearly YMMV.

I felt the same way until I got the HD amps. I really never understood what my speakers were capable of until I added them. Many would replace speakers first, at a cost IMO. I always read about "the first watt" and never got it...I get it now.

Dave

KeithR · Jun 27, 2018

For SS, I'd go DartZeel.

For tube, I'd go Music First (or Bespoke) with custom silver transformers + ARC Ref 160s

Your speakers are fine for either.

audioguy · Jun 27, 2018

microstrip said:
Surely OMMV, considering your interests are mainly in AV, not in stereo reproduction. Great theater room and system, BTW.

I feel that although is some sense differences diminish as characteristic coloration of brands is reduced, matching becomes much more critical.

Thanks for the nice complement. Now that I am mostly retired, it gets a lot more use than ever before. Afternoons listening to my music or that from Tidal and a couple of evenings watching movies (and occasionally during the day when my wife is gone and I can watch non chic-flicks !!)

My room is used for both movies and music, hours listening/watching about 50/50. And while some of the music listening is using all of the speakers in the room, some is in JUST stereo. But for all of the time I have been involved in this [strike]addiction[/strike] hobby (well over 40 years), the vast majority has been 2 channel music. And my position stands - though it did not used to be so.

Once I discovered that rooms had the highest distortion of any "component", followed closely by speakers, that became my focus. Two rooms ago, I had almost as much in passive room treatment as I did in my 2 channel system. And it was worth every penny of it. Fortunately, companies like GIK now offer much more cost effective (and effective) passive solutions. But even in this room, I have about $10,000 in passive room treatment.

I am not naive enough to believe that I can just change speakers and make that decision in a vacuum. If, for example, I were to decide on a pair of Maggie 30.7's for our living room (if ONLY !!!!!!), I recognize that any of my current or even recent amps would not do.

But, if I were looking for an upgrade in 2 channel performance in our theater/listening room, amps would not even be under consideration - nor would passive room treatment since the existing treatment plan was designed around using the room primary for music.

I am not suggesting system matching is not important to extract the very best out of our rooms/systems, but unless my existing speakers were the pinnacle of awesomeness (they are not), they would be the first to get replaced. My existing amps would just have to do until I determined if they could be a long term solution.

morricab · Jun 27, 2018

Hieukm said:
I am currently using Soulution 520/511 electronics. I am thinking of upgrading my electronics to end game level SS. I can only think of brand of ultra level quality such as Boulder, Dartzeel, CH Precision, Trinity. I have high sensitivity speaker( 99db) and small space(20m2). I would like to ask for your expert opinions on the following:

- Is there any other SS brand would you consider Ultra end?
- The second and more important question is Am I right to think that delta upgrade between a mid level gear in electronics compared to end game one is much smaller than that of other arear such as DAC/speaker/cable/source/grouding tweak/vibration control/power conditioning?

Thanks

With such a setup, why wouldn't you consider end game SET?

morricab · Jun 27, 2018

gian60 said:
Dear Hieukm,

i have a speaker of 98 db with very simple network and i had 2 Kondo Souga in biamp.
I consider Souga the best tube amp i listen in my life together with Audio tekne TM 9502,i never listen AC and Lamm ML 3,and when i changed with CH i listen same natural sound on mid bass and midhigh of Kondo,with better bass and better high.

Consider that i listen usually at 0.5/2 peak watt,i can see on CH amp display
If you can i suggest to try

I need to hear what you are hearing, Gian because I am quite familiar with both Kondo and with CH and to me they sound nothing alike.

Hieukm · Jun 27, 2018

Thank you everyone again for your help.

I feel i need to clarify further my approach. I have not always been a music lover so much as i am into the reproduction of music. The journey towards producing music realism is my first priority. When i get there, i would start putting together my music collection. Of course, the streaming site such as Tidal/Qobuz making music collection a lot less meaning less now.

So i am not a guy who constantly trade his gears. I rather than moving up the ladder by upgrading my components for significant delta. So i have setup a basic system and now have completed upgrade large part of it to SOTA.

My room is treated. I have SOTA in grounding(Empress, Elite, ground cables), SOTA in power(custom isolation transformer, Power Conditioner), almost SOTA DAC(Chord Blu2/Dave) which i felt would need more than double or triple the money to beat, an great speaker which gives me the tonal and speed i like. I am upgrading all my cables to Kuro, Furutech DPS-4, possibly Skogrand/Siltech/Masterbuilt for future, i had 8 ultra 5 and intended to move them under Empress/Elite once i acquire Stacore and/or Taiko Tana. I will shortly acquire for THEONE music server as i use digital only. Scherzinger devices is deem necessary too.

My path for all other parts of the system has always been cleared and necessary. However, when it comes to electronics, maybe SuperDave and Mike and others with end game pre amp + amp combo would clarify on the benefit over yours other tweaks like grounding, active vibration, etc.

Of course i understand the general idea is to build a system with solid fundamental (end game speaker, end game pre+amp, end game DAC) before all the tweaks. But i felt this approach is not giving the most benefit going digital only path.

As for question why dont you go SET route, i am in also in camp that SETs cant deliver when it comes to big orchestra music unless it is something with serious power (Aries Cerat, Zanden) which might cause heating trouble for my small room. I rather stick to SS as i do listen to a lot of big orchestra work which gives me the ultimate feeling of music realism.

It seems Dartzeel is the overwhelming favourite here. I would love to hear any Boulder or FM or Gryphon owner to share more.

JackD201 · Jun 27, 2018

My brief experience with Boulder and Westlakes was not favorable. It seemed to me that even after 3 days the Big Boulders never warmed up because the load was so benign. On FM, I believe their top preamp I heard used with a wide variety of amps is definitely end game with a bullet. Colored, yes but subtly so...yet it is in a way so beautiful, nuanced and articulate I don't think 99.99 percent of people would or should care.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 28, 2018

Hieukm said:
Thank you everyone again for your help.

I feel i need to clarify further my approach. I have not always been a music lover so much as i am into the reproduction of music. The journey towards producing music realism is my first priority. When i get there, i would start putting together my music collection. Of course, the streaming site such as Tidal/Qobuz making music collection a lot less meaning less now.

So i am not a guy who constantly trade his gears. I rather than moving up the ladder by upgrading my components for significant delta. So i have setup a basic system and now have completed upgrade large part of it to SOTA.

My room is treated. I have SOTA in grounding(Empress, Elite, ground cables), SOTA in power(custom isolation transformer, Power Conditioner), almost SOTA DAC(Chord Blu2/Dave) which i felt would need more than double or triple the money to beat, an great speaker which gives me the tonal and speed i like. I am upgrading all my cables to Kuro, Furutech DPS-4, possibly Skogrand/Siltech/Masterbuilt for future, i had 8 ultra 5 and intended to move them under Empress/Elite once i acquire Stacore and/or Taiko Tana. I will shortly acquire for THEONE music server as i use digital only. Scherzinger devices is deem necessary too.

My path for all other parts of the system has always been cleared and necessary. However, when it comes to electronics, maybe SuperDave and Mike and others with end game pre amp + amp combo would clarify on the benefit over yours other tweaks like grounding, active vibration, etc.

Of course i understand the general idea is to build a system with solid fundamental (end game speaker, end game pre+amp, end game DAC) before all the tweaks. But i felt this approach is not giving the most benefit going digital only path.

As for question why dont you go SET route, i am in also in camp that SETs cant deliver when it comes to big orchestra music unless it is something with serious power (Aries Cerat, Zanden) which might cause heating trouble for my small room. I rather stick to SS as i do listen to a lot of big orchestra work which gives me the ultimate feeling of music realism.

It seems Dartzeel is the overwhelming favourite here. I would love to hear any Boulder or FM or Gryphon owner to share more.

well, it might be helpful to relate something that Miguel from Tripoint said to me a few times, and that is that low noise is a fundamental issue for a system to be able to find that ultimate magic. and solid state, particularly the most refined, natural, complete, and transparent circuits, give any 'aids' the most to work with......and allow for the biggest delta of advantage. and when all that really lines up, you hear deeper, and deeper, and deeper, into the musical message. and when pushed, the system holds together and you are swept away. the more demanding the music, the more I appreciate what my electronics do.

of course, I've done all the room and ancillary support detail work to give my system an extremely low noise floor to begin with....which is not trivial.

there are other approaches that bring people musical pleasure. it's not the only right way. but when the fur starts flying those approaches at some point are compromised (in my experience, in my room). but products such as darTZeel do not limit what the system can do. it will never get in the way of the musical message. it stays natural and musical and 'real' to my ears. and I enjoy all the benefits of my Tripoint, Entreq, and Taiko Tana 'aids'.

it's a matter of balance and the concept of hidden layers of performance. the musical message has so much nuance and inner truth. which balance of attributes allows the greatest access to all that? and the most musical pleasure......on the music YOU love. the broader your tastes, the more low noise and solid state matter.

my 2 cents, YMMV.

gian60 · Jun 28, 2018

@Morricab
Of Kondo I like only Souga and ANJ I like only Kageki and Baransu
I don’t like others
Have you listen this well at your home?

morricab · Jun 28, 2018

Hieukm said:
Thank you everyone again for your help.

I feel i need to clarify further my approach. I have not always been a music lover so much as i am into the reproduction of music. The journey towards producing music realism is my first priority. When i get there, i would start putting together my music collection. Of course, the streaming site such as Tidal/Qobuz making music collection a lot less meaning less now.

So i am not a guy who constantly trade his gears. I rather than moving up the ladder by upgrading my components for significant delta. So i have setup a basic system and now have completed upgrade large part of it to SOTA.

My room is treated. I have SOTA in grounding(Empress, Elite, ground cables), SOTA in power(custom isolation transformer, Power Conditioner), almost SOTA DAC(Chord Blu2/Dave) which i felt would need more than double or triple the money to beat, an great speaker which gives me the tonal and speed i like. I am upgrading all my cables to Kuro, Furutech DPS-4, possibly Skogrand/Siltech/Masterbuilt for future, i had 8 ultra 5 and intended to move them under Empress/Elite once i acquire Stacore and/or Taiko Tana. I will shortly acquire for THEONE music server as i use digital only. Scherzinger devices is deem necessary too.

My path for all other parts of the system has always been cleared and necessary. However, when it comes to electronics, maybe SuperDave and Mike and others with end game pre amp + amp combo would clarify on the benefit over yours other tweaks like grounding, active vibration, etc.

Of course i understand the general idea is to build a system with solid fundamental (end game speaker, end game pre+amp, end game DAC) before all the tweaks. But i felt this approach is not giving the most benefit going digital only path.

As for question why dont you go SET route, i am in also in camp that SETs cant deliver when it comes to big orchestra music unless it is something with serious power (Aries Cerat, Zanden) which might cause heating trouble for my small room. I rather stick to SS as i do listen to a lot of big orchestra work which gives me the ultimate feeling of music realism.

It seems Dartzeel is the overwhelming favourite here. I would love to hear any Boulder or FM or Gryphon owner to share more.

What, may I ask, are the speakers?

morricab · Jun 28, 2018

gian60 said:
@Morricab
Of Kondo I like only Souga and ANJ I like only Kageki and Baransu
I don’t like others
Have you listen this well at your home?

Hi Gian,
No, not at my home. Also, I have not heard the models you indicate. I have heard GakuOh (PSET and PP), GakuOn, Ongaku (both original and later version), Kegon (not UK one) and Neiro. I have heard with single driver (Fertin based) with Onken box subwoofers and with Audioplan Konzert II speakers with vinyl from Voyd Reference TT, top arm and top (at that time) ZYX cartridge. The sound from these systems is nothing like I have heard from CH at dealers and at shows. Kondo is very emotional and rich sounding and CH is very clean and technical sounding...tone is not comparable from what I have heard so far. I am not saying one is right and the other wrong per se but that they are very different and I can't imagine equating one with the other and liking one and then switching to the other.

Hieukm · Jun 28, 2018

morricab said:
What, may I ask, are the speakers?

Cessaro Qian Long field coil speakers.

Tango · Jun 28, 2018

Hieukm said:
Cessaro Qian Long field coil speakers.

WoW, my fellow Cessaro owner. Yours are one of the kind. Also the magic boxes too..both Empress and Elite.

Do you want a JMF transport? I had less than 30 hrs on it

.

Kind regards,
Tang

Hieukm · Jun 28, 2018

Tango said:
WoW, my fellow Cessaro owner. Yours are one of the kind. Also the magic boxes too..both Empress and Elite.

Do you want a JMF transport? I had less than 30 hrs on it .

Kind regards,
Tang

Hi my fellow SouthEastAsian,

I want your Kuro speaker cable even if you have 300 hours on it.

.

microstrip · Jun 28, 2018

Hieukm said:
(...) It seems Dartzeel is the overwhelming favourite here. I would love to hear any Boulder or FM or Gryphon owner to share more.

Yes, as we have a very enthusiastic and knowledgeable owner, DartZeel generates a lot of deserved references. But IMHO, considering only the solid state amplifiers I have listened side by side with top DartZeel's or in the same room and conditions, I consider that the top Constellation Audio (Hercules + Altair) or D'Agostino Momentum mono's with their preamplifier are at the same level. Choice for either of them will depend on owner preferences, and surely on the speakers and the source.

bonzo75 · Jun 28, 2018

PM mullard88 for any information you need on FMA. He lives in Philippines. Jack's comment on FM above would possibly also take into account the experience with mullard88. He is also very familiar with spectral

JackD201 · Jun 28, 2018

Hieukm said:
Hi my fellow SouthEastAsian,

I want your Kuro speaker cable even if you have 300 hours on it. .

Hello! Where in SEA are you from?

JackD201 · Jun 28, 2018

bonzo75 said:
PM mullard88 for any information you need on FMA. He lives in Philippines. Jack's comment on FM above would possibly also take into account the experience with mullard88. He is also very familiar with spectral

Definitely! My experience with that pre is from many hours of listening at Mullard88's.

bonzo75 · Jun 28, 2018

JackD201 said:
Definitely! My experience with that pre is from many hours of listening at Mullard88's.

Did you guys try it with valve/set amps, and did it have the flow? And obviously the 122 phono and 155 pre, the lower models, won't be as good, but would like to know if they had the flow and tone

End game pre amp + amp upgrade

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor

WBF Founding Member

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor

Similar threads