End game pre amp + amp upgrade

Hieukm

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Oct 2, 2016
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I am currently using Soulution 520/511 electronics. I am thinking of upgrading my electronics to end game level SS. I can only think of brand of ultra level quality such as Boulder, Dartzeel, CH Precision, Trinity. I have high sensitivity speaker( 99db) and small space(20m2). I would like to ask for your expert opinions on the following:

- Is there any other SS brand would you consider Ultra end?
- The second and more important question is Am I right to think that delta upgrade between a mid level gear in electronics compared to end game one is much smaller than that of other arear such as DAC/speaker/cable/source/grouding tweak/vibration control/power conditioning?

Thanks
 
Last edited:

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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CH Precision is flavour of the month. Try and have a listen to that.

Vitus was flavour of last year.

Why not go up the Solution line?

With your high sens speakers and you want to stay with SS - perhaps look at Dartzeel.
 

Bobbi

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Mar 5, 2016
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Do yourself a favour a listen to Grandinote. If by ultra end SS you want pure music. Natural music.
 

bonzo75

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FM acoustics
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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I am currently using Soulution 520/511 electronics. I am thinking of upgrading my electronics to end game level SS. I can only think of brand of ultra level quality such as Boulder, Dartzeel, CH Precision, Trinity. I have high sensitivity speaker( 99db) and small space(20m2). I would like to ask for your expert opinions on the following:

- Is there any other SS brand would you consider Ultra end?
- The second and more important question is Am I right to think that delta upgrade between a mid level gear in electronics compared to end game one is much smaller than that of other arear such as DAC/speaker/cable/source/grouding tweak/vibration control/power conditioning?

Thanks

Hi...lots of great questions which many of us ask ourselves all the time! A few thoughts:

1. Your 20m2 room and 99db speaker sensitivity gives you potentially quite a few options in SS. Not sure about how difficult your speaker is to drive, etc. But certainly there is a good chance you can run with a variety of lower powered and higher powered SS.

2. As for SS amps, my personal favorites are Gryphon, Boulder. I have not heard FMA which I am told is fantastic, nor CH Precision which 1-2 audio friends of mine with 'limitless funds' ($1M+/- systems) have moved towards in the last 12 months. I have not heard higher end Goldmunds but even their 'mid level' presented some shockingly polished and extended treble which was a strong sign for me. D'Agostino is great though out of personal preference, I have chosen Gryphon.

3. As for the uplift...this is tricky and I suspect it depends on your system, your room and your power grid coming into the house. If your room and power are well thought out/designed...you may not benefit from dedicated power conditioners, etc.

In my own experience, there are TWO things that have provided benefits i could not replicate any other way:

- Good physical isolation: for me, that means HRS, Stillpoints Ultra 6s underneath...with some level of mass damping on top (HRS, Artesania, sheer weight). The benefits were (with very, very, VERY careful setup) that the signal came through stronger but without any editorializing of the original signal tonal quality i had before. In addition to stronger, the signal was also far clearer...specifically on complex choral music, i could actually understand as much as 30% more words than without the isolation. Amplification gave me SOME of this but not nearly as much. But again, this is probably because of our flooring which was likely vibrating particularly with the big Velodyne DD-18+ sub

- Good Tripoint/Entreq grounding. This is an odd one to describe because despite the 'clearer, tonally purer, organic, better micro-rhythm, etc' benefits, NONE of these benefits were replicable with any other method of system set up i could think of. It was entirely different, totally and unequivocally better...but i could not get this from isolation, speaker setup, cables or anything else. It just removes 'invisible audio dirt' out of the way that I only realized was there AFTER it was gone.

Other than these two, I have found that quality SS made a huge difference in allowing the system to effortlessly 'be itself'...ie, no limit on power, on dynamics, on attack, on noise, etc. That was what Gryphon gave me. I understand totally that Gryphon has its own signature...all electronics inevitably do...but for me, the high quality SS of Class A gave me a quality and quantum of power I did not feel the need to think any further about...and enabled me to concentrate on other areas of the system...digital, preamp, cables, etc...

my two cents. Hope that helps.

ONE OTHER THING ABOUT YOUR QUESTIONS:

You asked about the uplift from mid-to-SOTA. That is a real 'it depends'. For many of us on this forum, the difference is just as great going from low to mid, as it is from mid to hi. NO - that does not mean the actual uplift is necessarily the same level...some so-called mid-fi is actually incredibly good. What it DOES mean is that when you truly appreciate 'whats best'...then going that extra mile is a remarkable achievement where you just sit back in your chair and REVEL in the incredible quality which you know and fully appreciate very, very few people have. THAT is very special, and [for me] what makes high end audio truly amazing.

In my experience, you can make GREAT music with well-selected, great value-for-money mid-fi...and even many of us might never look back. But if you are in this game til the end and you have the desire to spend the EFFORT as well as the funds, then that extra mile of distance can be very, very rewarding and for some, even MORE rewarding than getting up to mid-fi just because the mountain is that much higher, trickier, complicated, to get just right.

One man's opinion. Hope that helps.
 
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Legolas

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Great reply there LL21, and I agree with you. May I also add my take, for my personal finding on the amp question.

I have owned quite a few 'mid-fi' systems over the years. I do find that having tubes in the chain helps to bring things back to reality and slant the sound signature towards a more realistic timbre and texture, more body. I am not saying all SS doesn't work, I have heard some 'best of show' systems that were SS, but they are special and quite unusual to my ears. Lamm for example almost always win best of show with their tube amplifiers, not the hybrid ML2s.

So what I am saying? I am saying the OP could look at the source and consider that into the mix. A tube pre can work it's magic with a top SS power amp IMO.

Likewise a tube DAC can do the same with an SS power amp.

And with high efficiency speakers it leads me to recommend a top SET power amplifier. The first watt is the most important as they say.

Look for Billy's posts on the Aries Cerat thread on WBF. He has / had Soulution amps and is upgrading to Aries Cerat.

On the CH Amps, I heard a big system at Munich with 2 x big CH Monoblocks, sounded good, typical solid state to my ears though, bit dry and lifeless, no emotion.

Ask Mike Levine as well, he has DartZeel and lately got the Lamm ML3s as well, and has a take on both (how the sound changes).

Good luck.
 

Hieukm

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2016
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Thank you guys for providing such eloquent response. I would welcome more response especially on the second question.

It has always been in my mind the the electronics have not made much progress in the last 10-15 years. Our mid-fi electronics are trickle down technology from the SOTA line. Thus i imagine the gap between the two is not so big.

If one were to upgrade from my Soulution 5 series or other mid series electronics to their SOTA counter part, it would be in the region of at least 100k to spend

For that 100k, i could drop into SOTA music server + SOTA vibration control + SOTA grounding + SOTA DAC ( from my current Chord Dave/Blu2 which i magine already pretty much up there) and/or SOTA tweak such as Schnerzinger/Cables.

I am trying to pursuit till end of game but i still feel it is better to spend on other part of the system rather than upgradihg my electronics.

I would love hearing experience in contradiction of my above thoughts to get a balanced view on this.
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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CH Precision is flavour of the month. Try and have a listen to that.

Vitus was flavour of last year.

Why not go up the Solution line?

With your high sens speakers and you want to stay with SS - perhaps look at Dartzeel.

Really? Like CH and Vitus owners are trend whores? Kinda harsh don't you think XV? IMO this is a company that has earned its reputation over a long period of time. By that I mean what has been displayed over the years are the same models. While it may be "cool" to be one of those to have invested in them before they were famous, nah, no it wasn't. It was purely a performance based decision. Flavor of the "whatever" has never been of any interest to me. Nor I believe should it be to anybody. It should work like it should and it should have a company behind it that will make sure it will do so for a long time. Fact is, these are all great products. Taste should trump everything else and current popularity shouldn't be the driving factor for purchase NOR should it be a grounds for disqualification.

-------------

@hieukm

Now brands aside, given the specific requirements and acoustic circumstances, I would personally be looking at low wattage performance. The first 20 watts are crucial for 99dB speakers in my experience. Many SS amps have sound events that are "stillborn" at this output range and the 99dB sensitivity and the close listening distance WILL lay this bare. I could live with some noise if I had to but a patchwork event portrayal I could not live with. When I hear "endgame" that has to include a home trial. The criteria stated above is what I personally would listen for in your situation. If I need to crank it for everything to come together, that sucker is out of contention because that is a telltale sign of a bad match. It's akin to the low sensitivity speaker problem where one might need to crank it to come alive. Coming together and coming alive are two different things after all. Ideally we want both the coherency and the life throughout the entire usable SPL range. In other words we should be in the magic zone where we neither need to strain to hear fine details nor get drilled through our skulls with them.

Back to recommendations, I can say that CH does complete presentation at its lowest ranges. It is the reason I believe that many tube heads, myself included have gone with CH. That they are ghostly quiet is the big bonus. That said, in this day and age, CH is not alone. Another SS line of amps that comes to mind when talking about high efficiency and SS is Esoteric which also has a detailed but gentle touch if not the same kind of spatiality.

I would seriously recommend giving the Valvet A series a try. They are not expensive and work very well with speakers that do not need a lot of power but certainly require truthful resolution like Quad ESLs, single driver speakers or horn/dynamic woofer hybrids. While they won't give the half kW peaks and up the CH's can, the 50 or so watts at 8ohms should be plenty for all but the most irresponsible listening.
 

Legolas

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Thank you guys for providing such eloquent response. I would welcome more response especially on the second question.

It has always been in my mind the the electronics have not made much progress in the last 10-15 years. Our mid-fi electronics are trickle down technology from the SOTA line. Thus i imagine the gap between the two is not so big.

If one were to upgrade from my Soulution 5 series or other mid series electronics to their SOTA counter part, it would be in the region of at least 100k to spend

For that 100k, i could drop into SOTA music server + SOTA vibration control + SOTA grounding + SOTA DAC ( from my current Chord Dave/Blu2 which i magine already pretty much up there) and/or SOTA tweak such as Schnerzinger/Cables.

I am trying to pursuit till end of game but i still feel it is better to spend on other part of the system rather than upgradihg my electronics.

I would love hearing experience in contradiction of my above thoughts to get a balanced view on this.

rsz_img_1968.jpg
Ok, now I see your source. DAVE is good. I would repeat my advice, and look at tubes, get some realistic timbre going on. 99dB speakers, they are gagging for it. You really don't need or want 200 watts SS amps to drive them. It can be good, I am currently running a Plinius 150 watt Class A into my Zingali 95 dB efficient horn hybrids. BUT with high powered SETS it would be on another level. The first watt is more important than the supposed power. I also can't remember how many times I have heard 500+ watt Krell at shows for years, to then be blown away by how good 22 watts of SET sounds in the next room.

Timbre, body, realism, the things I love about good tube amps....
 

jep123

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Based on personal experiences; May I suggest the Absolare Passion integrated in the Signature edition? I think that it makes no sense spending more on amp, it is truly outstanding.

JP
 

microstrip

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I am currently using Soulution 520/511 electronics. I am thinking of upgrading my electronics to end game level SS. I can only think of brand of ultra level quality such as Boulder, Dartzeel, CH Precision, Trinity. I have high sensitivity speaker( 99db) and small space(20m2). I would like to ask for your expert opinions on the following:

- Is there any other SS brand would you consider Ultra end?
- The second and more important question is Am I right to think that delta upgrade between a mid level gear in electronics compared to end game one is much smaller than that of other arear such as DAC/speaker/cable/source/grouding tweak/vibration control/power conditioning?

Thanks

IMHO we do not have detail enough for advising - we do not know what type of sound you like, what are exactly your speakers, what is your source and what kind of room you have.

Many moderns brands would please your requirements, but in absence of information most of our answers will only reflect our preferences and the strong desire of some audiophiles to promote their choices and criticize the ones they dislike.
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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I've heard all of these amps at many shows because I'm an exhibitor. I personally use SET tube amps, but I'm always keeping my ear out for good SS.

The one that impressed me the most in the last 10 years is the Wells Audio monoblocks. You must run them single-ended though, not balanced. Very much like good tubes.

Another that was quite good is the D'agostino monoblocks.

As for active preamps, the only thing to get is a good tube preamp. Forget SS.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

gian60

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Apr 17, 2016
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Dear Hieukm,

i have a speaker of 98 db with very simple network and i had 2 Kondo Souga in biamp.
I consider Souga the best tube amp i listen in my life together with Audio tekne TM 9502,i never listen AC and Lamm ML 3,and when i changed with CH i listen same natural sound on mid bass and midhigh of Kondo,with better bass and better high.

Consider that i listen usually at 0.5/2 peak watt,i can see on CH amp display
If you can i suggest to try
 

flyer

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I've heard all of these amps at many shows because I'm an exhibitor. I personally use SET tube amps, but I'm always keeping my ear out for good SS.

The one that impressed me the most in the last 10 years is the Wells Audio monoblocks. You must run them single-ended though, not balanced. Very much like good tubes.

Another that was quite good is the D'agostino monoblocks.

As for active preamps, the only thing to get is a good tube preamp. Forget SS.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

In case anyone is interested, a customer of mine sells his D'agostine monos and preamp... PM me if you like to follow up.

Best,
flyer
 

Elliot G.

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Jul 22, 2010
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Thank you guys for providing such eloquent response. I would welcome more response especially on the second question.

It has always been in my mind the the electronics have not made much progress in the last 10-15 years. Our mid-fi electronics are trickle down technology from the SOTA line. Thus i imagine the gap between the two is not so big.

If one were to upgrade from my Soulution 5 series or other mid series electronics to their SOTA counter part, it would be in the region of at least 100k to spend

For that 100k, i could drop into SOTA music server + SOTA vibration control + SOTA grounding + SOTA DAC ( from my current Chord Dave/Blu2 which i magine already pretty much up there) and/or SOTA tweak such as Schnerzinger/Cables.

I am trying to pursuit till end of game but i still feel it is better to spend on other part of the system rather than upgradihg my electronics.

I would love hearing experience in contradiction of my above thoughts to get a balanced view on this.
If i was to give you any advise it would be if you want an end game system then listen to one . If you find the system and sound that makes you happy then buy it not pieces.
I was searching for electronics for a very long time and I happened to try the CH M-1 because a friend had suggested it. He also suggested what you 0wn and Dartzeel. I had also tried the latest DAG amps.
I suggest this because a drive by at a show with a room , speakers, etc, you don't own and is not in your listening space is only a small view of what gear does.
I think the SS gear has improved by light years over the last few years. I am pretty sure that if I took people to hear what I went through listening before I purchased the CH and in full disclosure decided to become a dealer of there's that they couid not tell me what kind of amp it is. This was the result of not only the amp , but the amp in conjunction with a superb quality dac, music server, cables and speakers. I don't want to diminish any other type of products all I am saying is you need to have the system parts in order before you go to the extremes. I see people buying all kinds of expensive accessories before they have a great system assembled properly.
In your case you front end is not close to the state of the art. It may be very good but its not "end game"
So IMHO a great pair of speakers
a great amp
a great front end whatever you choose could be digital or analog
then and only then should do the rest. You should listen to as much of it as possible together if you can and find someone that will work with you to get you there and SUPPORT them if they can take you to that special place.
SHOWS ARE APPETIZERS NOT THE MAIN COURSE!!!!!
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Thank you guys for providing such eloquent response. I would welcome more response especially on the second question.

It has always been in my mind the the electronics have not made much progress in the last 10-15 years. Our mid-fi electronics are trickle down technology from the SOTA line. Thus i imagine the gap between the two is not so big.

If one were to upgrade from my Soulution 5 series or other mid series electronics to their SOTA counter part, it would be in the region of at least 100k to spend

For that 100k, i could drop into SOTA music server + SOTA vibration control + SOTA grounding + SOTA DAC ( from my current Chord Dave/Blu2 which i magine already pretty much up there) and/or SOTA tweak such as Schnerzinger/Cables.

I am trying to pursuit till end of game but i still feel it is better to spend on other part of the system rather than upgradihg my electronics.

I would love hearing experience in contradiction of my above thoughts to get a balanced view on this.

I respect your desire to have an 'end-game' approach. that has been exactly my thinking too. my goal along the way is to put together a room and system that is not limiting. my priorities were to have a system that can do justice to all types of music, and at all scales of music. which has pushed me to solid state, even though I have a strong feeling for tube magic too. and it's also pushed me toward the more efficient type speaker systems as this allows amplifiers to operate in the most favorable environment.

so 'end game' must consider where you are going, and then start at the beginning. including power grid, ambient noise levels, solid floors, and properly shaped and sized rooms. none of those should be limiting so your 'end game' electronics can really do their thing.

so for me, I did chose darTZeel as a natural sounding solid state but with lots of dynamic life and low noise. also a great first watt.....low parts count in the signal path, no global feedback. the music is never strangled. the darTZeel is not limiting. it can do full justice with the most demanding full scale music, but also the most delicate nuance and tonal textures. close to tubes in these things.

there are a few levels of darTZeel (both new and used) so you don't need huge initial investment to get going, each of which bring those attributes and non limiting musical viewpoint. it's a great foundation for a system.
 

audioguy

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Apr 20, 2010
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I am trying to pursuit till end of game but i still feel it is better to spend on other part of the system rather than upgradihg my electronics.

My position as well. While I am not suggesting all amps sound the same, I am suggesting the differences between great amps continue to diminish - at least in comparison to other parts of the listening chain. If I were trying to make the most improvement in my system with the greatest return, 98% of my effort would focus on room acoustics/treatment and speakers, in that order.

Clearly YMMV.
 

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