" I never lied to you I always told you some version of the truth." Jack Nicholson

Elliot G.

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After reading Mr. Valin again today on the TAS site It
made me question and wonder is this really the condition of the Audio Industry?
Are we at the point that there is no Absolute Sound and its just a free for all with product as to the flavor one likes?
Are reviews therefor totally worthless? or do you just pick the flavor from the reviewer you prefer who agrees with you or the one that validates you opinion and gives the "permission slip?"

If this is the truth then where do we go from here? I ponder this daily. How do we learn and how do we improve without a fixed target?
I know how much hard work and effort many companies put into their products to get closer to the music and I have a hard time wrapping my head around how easily this is dismissed by"flavors"

I just came back from Munich and I will admit it was fun and interesting to see and listen briefly to the amazing gear that was presented there.
I am still a believer in audio as a system and not pieces. Does the system get you closer to the music? Does it create a sensation of disbelief? Does it act as a time machine and transport me to a musical event?
To me its not a flavor!
I searched for a long time to find products I love, products that do this for me. I realize that they are not the only products that can do this or that any one system is perfect but I don't believe that its just any opinion is a version of the truth.

After all my years as a dealer I find it absurd to make declarations about any product in a void yet that happens every day.
i.e. Someone listens to a complete complex system and makes a declaration like
:thats the best ethernet cable I ever heard: yet they have none of the system.

This is not meant as criticism only to start a dialogue from this Forums many experienced listeners
 

RogerD

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You can not judge by piece so to say as those pieces make the whole.

As for Judging sound quality, that’s a big kettle of fish. How clear can reproduced music get? The answer is pretty darn clear. But how can you tell when the system is perfected? You have to have a method that effects clarity in the moment and understand that changes made will take a long time to achieve maximum effect.

I use the level of clarity because that effects every aspect of reproduction. A person needs to train himself how to recognize and understand the hundreds of possible gradations of clarity. Understanding that a microphone can capture a vast amount of information is a big step and what should be revealed in a good recording.

A recording should render the music with astonishing realism in the physical dimension like you are placed in place that the recording took place. That recquires some serious thought and contemplation.
 

asiufy

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Elliott,

I see two points in your post...

The first, "flavors". There's nothing wrong with it, and I truly believe that's a valid explanation why people prefer certain systems, that I, honestly, see very few qualities in. Different people, different flavors, all fine.

Now, the folks that walk into a room and proclaim "that's the best Ethernet cable", without in-depth knowledge of the rest of the system, now THAT is a problem, and unfortunately, that sort of person is too prevalent in this hobby/business. And it's not about "flavors" here, just lack of knowledge/reference.


cheers,
alex
 

andromedaaudio

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From all the mags , AS is definetively not my flavour, lol.

Calling yourself the absolute sound , theyve always reminded me of politicians
 

Elliot G.

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Elliott,

I see two points in your post...

The first, "flavors". There's nothing wrong with it, and I truly believe that's a valid explanation why people prefer certain systems, that I, honestly, see very few qualities in. Different people, different flavors, all fine.

Now, the folks that walk into a room and proclaim "that's the best Ethernet cable", without in-depth knowledge of the rest of the system, now THAT is a problem, and unfortunately, that sort of person is too prevalent in this hobby/business. And it's not about "flavors" here, just lack of knowledge/reference.


cheers,
alex

You miss the point Alex,
Of course anyone can like whatever they like. Personal choice of a consumer is what they pay for. The larger point of my post is when the "reviewers" stop being a critic and choose a flavors to fit a review that makes no sense to me. It is not for me to tell anyone what they like however we can't have multiple categories for the same things to fit so no one is offended. I judge that as marketing not being a critic.
I am not a critic, nor reviewer however this flavor stuff is not either it is more being a reporter saying nice things about everything so as to not offend or critique.
I learned from reading HP and perhaps I am an old curmudgeon but I still learn but not form the press anymore. It has gone full cirlce.
 

andromedaaudio

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Manufacturers have knowledge at least quit a few , what knowledge do most reviewers have ??
And off course a mag is a bit of marketing , they live of advertisements mostly dont they?
 

PeterA

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That is a nice opening post, Elliot. I read Mr. Valin's review of the Magico M3 a while ago in the print version of TAS. You raise some interesting points, but I think it will be very difficult to distinguish the difference between "flavor" and some"fixed target" or truth, because it is all so subjective. We "think" something sounds more real to us than does something else. That is our truth, often based on other systems and live music as references. By "target" do you mean the sound of real instruments? If you do, and one person's flavor happens to be what he thinks comes closest to that target and "the truth", what do we have left to discuss? I suppose we can all listen to the same system, or component, and judge for ourselves. If we reach some kind of consensus, then we can ask why it sounds the way it does, and this may lead to discussions and learning.

Mr. Valin describes the M3 (and M6) as the speaker that sounds most like real music to him. It is his opinion, and that opinion is well written. Others may disagree, but a well written review can give someone something to think about. It brings attention to a product and then people may become curious to hear it for themselves. Reviews, like forum opinions, provide data and impressions. They can be appreciated or ignored. I think Valin feels these speakers do for him what your chosen systems do for you, namely: "Does the system get you closer to the music? Does it create a sensation of disbelief? Does it act as a time machine and transport me to a musical event?"
 

microstrip

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(...) After all my years as a dealer I find it absurd to make declarations about any product in a void yet that happens every day.
i.e. Someone listens to a complete complex system and makes a declaration like :thats the best ethernet cable I ever heard: yet they have none of the system. (...)

No problem, just ignore it ...

IMHO review readers must understand that the conditions of the listening to establish the scope and limitations of the review.

When J. Valin says "I happen to like this kind of “just the facts, ma’am” honesty, but I’m in the minority." he says it all. But I think that Magico marketing department will not be very pleased to know that their speaker was reviewed by someone that has a very different preference from the majority of audiophiles.

But yes, it was a disappointing review for anyone having read J. Valin nice reviews of the past. He just repeats himself over and over, nothing new and very little substance about the sound of the M3. The good news for MSB fans is that he shows more enthusiasm for the Select than for the Magico's ...

Perhaps we are reacting using our expectations when reading high-end reviews - but TAS calls this article an "Equipment Report", not a review. It looks an "equipment report" is a just a summary of the marketing brochures with a superficial opinion.
 
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asiufy

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You miss the point Alex,
Of course anyone can like whatever they like. Personal choice of a consumer is what they pay for. The larger point of my post is when the "reviewers" stop being a critic and choose a flavors to fit a review that makes no sense to me. It is not for me to tell anyone what they like however we can't have multiple categories for the same things to fit so no one is offended. I judge that as marketing not being a critic.
I am not a critic, nor reviewer however this flavor stuff is not either it is more being a reporter saying nice things about everything so as to not offend or critique.
I learned from reading HP and perhaps I am an old curmudgeon but I still learn but not form the press anymore. It has gone full cirlce.

Maybe I did miss the point, I don't think I understand what your point is then :)
It's frustrating when a reviewer plays the "flavors" card, as he should be able to *describe* that flavor, as well as attributes / qualities to the product under review, and if possible, establish where it sits in the pecking order of similar products. That's what's supposed to separate them (reviewers) from the general public and even the forum participants. They should be able to go beyond the "I like it"/"I don't like it", as most do have the first-hand experience with gear, but maybe not the disposition to fully "go there" and describe the product as it is.
 

cjfrbw

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Critics aren't soul searching philosophers although they may be seekers and audiophiles at some level. They are marketing politicians, personalities, and entertainers who are created by the markets they dwell in.

Just like leaders in religions, critics MUST subscribe to certain polemic belief systems (even if they don't necessarily believe in them themselves) in order to maintain their positions as commercial high priests, or they won't have product coming through the doors any more and they won't enjoy whatever status their position gives them. So, high end audio is full of convenient superstitions and promulgated belief systems that serve markets as much as sound quality.

The recent silly controversies over 9" and 12" tonearms are a case in point. The error envelope of vinyl playback is so unalterable and huge, any "precision" involving differences is purely moot, yet everybody jumps on the bandwagon with an opinion about these fake precisions.

What is wrong with flavors? Nobody seems to object to them in food. I have may different and enjoyable ways of listening, and I like all of them.

I long ago cashiered the notion of the absolute sound, which is a manipulative construct, and now regard my audio system as a player piano playing indeterminate scrolls, which I want to sound a certain way and as good as possible. If it can make me hallucinate and intensify emotion and some sense of transcendent communication, that is good enough for me.

Audiophiles also have incredibly diverse motives, including prestige, exclusivity, and cost distinction, not to mention endless arrays of obsessive intoxication, not just sound quality, so as usual, one must eventually decide one's own priorities.
 

NorthStar

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No problem, just ignore it ...

IMHO review readers must understand that the conditions of the listening to establish the scope and limitations of the review.

When J. Valin says "I happen to like this kind of “just the facts, ma’am” honesty, but I’m in the minority." he says it all. But I think that Magico marketing department will not be very pleased to know that their speaker was reviewed by someone that has a very different preference from the majority of audiophiles.

But yes, it was a disappointing review for anyone having read J. Valin nice reviews of the past. He just repeats himself over and over, nothing new and very little substance about the sound of the M3. The good news for MSB fans is that he shows more enthusiasm for the Select than for the Magico's ...

Perhaps we are reacting using our expectations when reading high-end reviews - but TAS calls this article an "Equipment Report", not a review. It looks an "Equipment report" is a just a summary of the marketing brochures with a superficial opinion.

You speak wise as always Francisco.

Let's invite Jonathan Valin here to exchange with him our observations and learn from him his own.

Magico M3 Loudspeaker
When I Paint My Masterpiece


* Carl's post above I like too.
 

asiufy

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The good news for MSB fans is that he shows more enthusiasm for the Select than for the Magico's ...

Well, it's even better news, as he's got the MSB Reference, NOT the SELECT...
 

the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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That is a nice opening post, Elliot. I read Mr. Valin's review of the Magico M3 a while ago in the print version of TAS. You raise some interesting points, but I think it will be very difficult to distinguish the difference between "flavor" and some"fixed target" or truth, because it is all so subjective. We "think" something sounds more real to us than does something else. That is our truth, often based on other systems and live music as references. By "target" do you mean the sound of real instruments? If you do, and one person's flavor happens to be what he thinks comes closest to that target and "the truth", what do we have left to discuss? I suppose we can all listen to the same system, or component, and judge for ourselves. If we reach some kind of consensus, then we can ask why it sounds the way it does, and this may lead to discussions and learning.

Mr. Valin describes the M3 (and M6) as the speaker that sounds most like real music to him. It is his opinion, and that opinion is well written. Others may disagree, but a well written review can give someone something to think about. It brings attention to a product and then people may become curious to hear it for themselves. Reviews, like forum opinions, provide data and impressions. They can be appreciated or ignored. I think Valin feels these speakers do for him what your chosen systems do for you, namely: "Does the system get you closer to the music? Does it create a sensation of disbelief? Does it act as a time machine and transport me to a musical event?"
Great post ^, the notion that something sounds real itself is never an absolute and is coloured by previous and current experience and future expectation. Perception is a moving object, consciousness is alive and shifting, it transits between a series of states which are coloured by retention, experience and expectation.

Not to say that subjectivity itself is therefore utterly independent and unreliably referenced and useless, quite the opposite really. Just that it is non linear and the result of the sum of experiences and projections and forms out of the swirling, infinitely complex geometry of consciousness.

In the end the more experience we have though the more we can rely upon what we lift out of it. We just have to set reasonable limits for what we can say. We can hope to set up validated rules of assessment to help us create a framework for true comprehension and to map against a proposed set of values but in the end the feeling of rightness itself as a final review is all that really matters and given the essentially subjective nature of this pursuit then this is truly valid.

So yes, proclaiming some component as best without limit is fine as long as we realise it is always just an opinion and not absolute. When we are saying ‘best’ what we are actually just saying ‘best for me’... nothing to get excited about at all really.

When one proclaims something as best it means only something rather little really, though when many say it acquires much greater validity... and when we all agree that something is best then perhaps it truly universally is, and the skies will open up and the forums will fall silent. Reviews are just another data point and mean little more than that.
 
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ack

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Are Valin and TAS the problem, or most of us who never admit to anything being wrong with our systems
 

Al M.

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Great topic. A few thoughts:

1. If you don't take umamplified live music as standard, then it becomes more easily just a matter of flavor.

2. Even with live umamplified music as reference, it still remains a matter of flavor to some extent, since every listener
a) has different priorities of reproduction; you cannot get reproduction of all aspects perfect so you have to choose what is most important to you. Apart from that, everyone also chooses a presentation that fits their taste, e.g., more immediate or less so
b) hears live umamplified music differently

3) Clarity had been mentioned as criterium. I subscribe to that in principle, but you can also have fake clarity, stemming from overemphasis of certain freqencies, e.g., lower treble, or from false 'speed'. So the criterium has to be taken with caveats.
 

Al M.

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Are Valin and TAS the problem, or most of us who never admit to anything being wrong with our systems

That is a good point.
 

RogerD

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Great topic. A few thoughts:

1. If you don't take umamplified live music as standard, then it becomes more easily just a matter of flavor.

2. Even with live umamplified music as reference, it still remains a matter of flavor to some extent, since every listener
a) has different priorities of reproduction; you cannot get reproduction of all aspects perfect so you have to choose what is most important to you. Apart from that, everyone also chooses a presentation that fits their taste, e.g., more immediate or less so
b) hears live umamplified music differently

3) Clarity had been mentioned as criterium. I subscribe to that in principle, but you can also have fake clarity, stemming from overemphasis of certain freqencies, e.g., lower treble, or from false 'speed'. So the criterium has to be taken with caveats.

Al the clarity i’m talking about is extremely natural..beautiful and in some cases awe inspiring. I have come to really appreciate classical music and especially DG recordings...about as perfect as one could ask for. Someone used the descriptor “continueness”, this is a wonderful part of rendering the reproduction of a full orchestra..no limits on size or dimensionality. Clarity is the mother of great sound reproduction,because it brings true realism to the listener.
 

PeterA

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Al the clarity i’m talking about is extremely natural..beautiful and in some cases awe inspiring. I have come to really appreciate classical music and especially DG recordings...about as perfect as one could ask for. Someone used the descriptor “continueness”, this is a wonderful part of rendering the reproduction of a full orchestra..no limits on size or dimensionality. Clarity is the mother of great sound reproduction,because it brings true realism to the listener.

Clarity is the attribute which comes to mind when I recall the sound of a great orchestra playing in a great hall. And it is the attribute which most clearly tells me whether or not I am making progress when trying to improve the sound of my system.
 

RogerD

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Clarity is the attribute which comes to mind when I recall the sound of a great orchestra playing in a great hall. And it is the attribute which most clearly tells me whether or not I am making progress when trying to improve the sound of my system.

Peter +100
 

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