New Ultrasonic Machine Raises Eyebrows

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Plenty of food for thought.

FWIW, The Degritter I’ve invested in uses a gentler higher frequency than that of the Kirmuss, and there is no evidence of black debris/residue in the tank after 3 months’ cleaning.

Absolutely no sign of higher frequencies being adversely affected.

All in all I’m extremely satisfied.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I’m not sure we’re going to get to the bottom of this one.

Can anyone imagine a round robin discussion btwn the designers of different record cleaners to thrash out Kirmuss’ proposition?
No? Me neither.
 

microstrip

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IMHO we should comment the originals, not the quotes: https://www.kirmussaudio.com/home.html. From here we can see that the original article is particularly poor from a technical point of view, and marketing is mainly carried referring to the chaotic world of ultrasonic DIY cleaners, not to the professional market.

For a IMHO better quality reading see: https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/rushton-paul-diy-approach-ultrasonic-cleaning-lps/ and links included in the article. Surely it is just a start ...
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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The Kirmuss reps were at THE show yesterday. The white lab coats were on and so was the hard sell! Personally, the fact that this machine does NOT dry the records makes it a non-starter for me.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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He might have a point, I use several different machines and the results aren’t consistent and more often than not there’s no difference with the before and after. I also found that some machines actually hurt the sound. Looking at the Kirmuss process I doubt that it’s something I’ll be doing with my my vinyl but if it works with shellac, then probably yes.
Wonder if the process will remove LAST from treated records?
david
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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He might have a point, I use several different machines and the results aren’t consistent and more often than not there’s no difference with the before and after. I also found that some machines actually hurt the sound. Looking at the Kirmuss process I doubt that it’s something I’ll be doing with my my vinyl but if it works with shellac, then probably yes.
Wonder if the process will remove LAST from treated records?
david

Why would you want to remove LAST? Not saying it's a bad idea, just wondering.
 

ddk

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Why would you want to remove LAST? Not saying it's a bad idea, just wondering.

It's a layer of whatever on top of the vinyl, dulls the sound and it gunks up the stylus. On some records with one or two well played tracks the sound can be patchy.

david
 

microstrip

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Why would you want to remove LAST? Not saying it's a bad idea, just wondering.

Fortunately only a few of my LPs were treated with LAST - you have to clean the stylus every few tracks after applying it! And as David suggested, it is really hard to remove. Although I must confess I have not tried it with good cleaning machines, fearing that I would contaminate the rolls or felt lips!
 

ddk

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Fortunately only a few of my LPs were treated with LAST - you have to clean the stylus every few tracks after applying it! And as David suggested, it is really hard to remove. Although I must confess I have not tried it with good cleaning machines, fearing that I would contaminate the rolls or felt lips!

I don't have that many records with LAST either but the ones that have it are rare favorites that I can't easily replace. I can't remove LAST with any of my cleaners and you're right about the rollers. I find ultrasonic machines fine for light cleaning but with anything really dirty you'll just soil the rollers with no effect on the record. I think the Kirmuss has a place in the toolbox :)!

david
 

PeterA

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I don't have that many records with LAST either but the ones that have it are rare favorites that I can't easily replace. I can't remove LAST with any of my cleaners and you're right about the rollers. I find ultrasonic machines fine for light cleaning but with anything really dirty you'll just soil the rollers with no effect on the record. I think the Kirmuss has a place in the toolbox :)!

david

David, how can you know if the RCM removes LAST or not. Is LAST visible on the surface of the record?
 

ddk

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David, how can you know if the RCM removes LAST or not. Is LAST visible on the surface of the record?
There’s an Armor All like sheen to it and you should here a change in the sound if it was removed. You don’t always notice it without the sticker and might just pass over record thinking it’s just a dull one.
david
 

DaveyF

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Jeez, in the days that I used to use LAST, I had none of the problems mentioned above. If I remember, it specifically told one in the instructions to not use too much of the product per LP. If you are seeing a sheen, I suspect that way too much of the product was applied in the first place.
Add to that the fact that gunk is accruing on the stylus and my suspicions grow even stronger.:rolleyes:
 
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ddk

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Jeez, in the days that I used to use LAST, I had none of the problems mentioned above. If I remember, it specifically told one in the instructions to not use too much of the product per LP. If you are seeing a sheen, I suspect that way too much of the product was applied in the first place.
Add to that the fact that gunk is accruing on the stylus and my suspicions grow even stronger.:rolleyes:

Well, back then people were unaware of many things and used chemicals to clean their styli too destroying the cartridge’s suspension in the process. Many of this only became known years later. I never used LAST myself so I don’t know how it went on just what it looks like now.

david
 

PeterA

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I don't know what to make of that video. I too thought that the guy might have soap in the bottle. Once sprayed on the LP, the droplets looked soapy before he moved it around with the brush. But then some LPs and some washed a few times did not seem to have soapy residue, so who knows. I also wonder if he placed those bits of vinyl at the bottom of his tank. I don't see anything like that in my KLAudio cleaner. Fremer kept asking him questions about the mold release compound and where the soap comes from and he did not sound all that convincing. He mentioned angles, frequencies, waves instead of cavitation, but he never mentioned temperature.

I have had good results by combining my Loricraft thread machine with the ultrasonic cleaner.
 

Folsom

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Which ultra sonic do you think made the sound worse, David?

I've never had any problems with LAST treated albums I've bought. They have a little less groove noise.

As to the topic... That guy is mostly full of ****. The whole vinyl cleaning with specific additive to the water, and the sonic cleaning machines have been thoroughly vetted. He's counting on your ignorance towards all the research. And he's using misinformation. For example if you use dish soap it leaves a residue, and so does surfactants made for photo development. None of that is true with a pure surfactant. Multiple chemists have weighed in on the topic. There is complete safety in using different anti-fungal/bacterias, iso alcohol at certain percentages, and surfactants. This has been verified not only chemically, but with microscopes.

The one thing he's very correct about is that fan drying is not ideal. A lot of debris, while loose, can still be left on the vinyl. But where he's very wrong again is that you shouldn't vacuum them when you're done. You vacuum dry them but you apply more distilled water with surfactant when you do it, so that the debris will be in a solution as the suction occurs. Vacuuming is 100% safe, and has been the preferred method by multiple places that archive vinyl. While the all in one machines are much better than all previous solutions, the vacuuming is an improvement, and the machines that can use a specific solution are superior as well.

Comparisons have also been done between different frequencies. The debate on that is still out there slightly, but most people think 40khz is great. This guy might be onto something that 35khz could be slightly better. I don't know about the angle, because, it needs to hit it from both sides... that part makes little sense.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
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The Kirmuss reps were at THE show yesterday. The white lab coats were on and so was the hard sell! Personally, the fact that this machine does NOT dry the records makes it a non-starter for me.

I own a Loricraft PRC-3 point-nozzle RCM and an AudioDesk unit which both air dry - vacuum or fan.

At present my DIY USC (Elmasonic p120h) with pump and .35 micron filter typically cleans 5 or 6 LPs at a time at ~33°C. It uses a v. mild solution of ~2.75 gallons of distilled water, 1-1/3 cups 99.9% IPA with 1 tablespoon of Ilfotol (photographic wetting agent.)

Using a total dissolved solids meter the solution registers 0000 ppm. Water sheets off the records when removed from the tank. The records air dry sitting ay a ~45° angle, typically within 15 minutes. Air drying presents zero issues for me under this scenario.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Which ultra sonic do you think made the sound worse, David?

I've never had any problems with LAST treated albums I've bought. They have a little less groove noise.

As to the topic... That guy is mostly full of ****. The whole vinyl cleaning with specific additive to the water, and the sonic cleaning machines have been thoroughly vetted. He's counting on your ignorance towards all the research. And he's using misinformation. For example if you use dish soap it leaves a residue, and so does surfactants made for photo development. None of that is true with a pure surfactant. Multiple chemists have weighed in on the topic. There is complete safety in using different anti-fungal/bacterias, iso alcohol at certain percentages, and surfactants. This has been verified not only chemically, but with microscopes.

The one thing he's very correct about is that fan drying is not ideal. A lot of debris, while loose, can still be left on the vinyl. But where he's very wrong again is that you shouldn't vacuum them when you're done. You vacuum dry them but you apply more distilled water with surfactant when you do it, so that the debris will be in a solution as the suction occurs. Vacuuming is 100% safe, and has been the preferred method by multiple places that archive vinyl. While the all in one machines are much better than all previous solutions, the vacuuming is an improvement, and the machines that can use a specific solution are superior as well.

Comparisons have also been done between different frequencies. The debate on that is still out there slightly, but most people think 40khz is great. This guy might be onto something that 35khz could be slightly better. I don't know about the angle, because, it needs to hit it from both sides... that part makes little sense.

I haven’t found a problem with air drying or vacuuming it’s deep cleaning of really dirty LPs that I can’t get done satisfactorily, specially with shellac. I think he has a point there with manual scrubbing.

Compare a copy of the same record without LAST and you’ll hear the difference.

david
 

Folsom

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Yes, LAST sounds different, as I said, it has less grove noise. Good, bad? I dunno, really don't care. It won't stop me from buying an a used LP, but I won't buy the treatment either.

David, the problem with "really dirty" LP's typically isn't that you haven't got it clean, it's that the sounds you're probably still hearing are from cavities in the vinyl - not bumps of dust. The cleaners can't help with that sadly. That's why even a good cleaning that sounds a lot better will still have some noises.
 

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