Best W10 Roon Core set-up? Nucleus+ can't handel my library...

Kingsrule

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It was a rhetorical question! LOL

PB so there's your answer as I posted in #11 above...
 

microstrip

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Doesn't the JCAT NET Card give u "direct ethernet" ?

This? I am trying to install it - currently the stream goes through the Netgear router.
 

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Pb Blimp

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It was a rhetorical question! LOL

PB so there's your answer as I posted in #11 above...

I know that the JCAT femto card is very good but just because Emile says he can fit it in his server doesn't mean he thinks that's a good idea or superior to something he may be working on at the level of the SGM's performance envelope.
 

microstrip

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This? I am trying to install it - currently the stream goes through the Netgear router.

A noticeable improvement in fluidity, bass, articulation, separation and presence - everything seems more detailed, but not etched. I am listening to Pentatone Mozart Wind Concertos - Concertgebow Chamber Orchestra, Henk Rubingh in HiRez and instruments springle in the orchestra.

It was extremely easy to do - just changing cables , and re-booting the system twice . The change was transparent to Windows 10 and Roon.

I moved the optical fiber link from the DAC to the connection between the Netgear 108 router and my main router, and connected the NAS as displayed in the JCAT picture to the Netgear. I should have done it before - but I expected some work to re-configurate the system!

Next step - connect all Ethernet devices to linear battery operated power supplies, including the JCAT card. And perhaps a better cable between the JCAT card and the DAC. Sometimes small details operate big differences.
 

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Sablon Audio

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A noticeable improvement in fluidity, bass, articulation, separation and presence - everything seems more detailed, but not etched.

Micro, you are definitely on the right track. I just achieved a similar improvement by making some small mods to the generic power block which feeds my router, in anticipation of the imminent arrival of a Paul Hynes lps. The network environment so far seems very responsive to small mods and I suspect there is more low hanging fruit.
 

Kingsrule

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I know that the JCAT femto card is very good but just because Emile says he can fit it in his server doesn't mean he thinks that's a good idea or superior to something he may be working on at the level of the SGM's performance envelope.

So why don't u ask him directly?
 

Taiko Audio

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I know that the JCAT femto card is very good but just because Emile says he can fit it in his server doesn't mean he thinks that's a good idea or superior to something he may be working on at the level of the SGM's performance envelope.

My apologies for the late reply, we are currently busier then usual expanding to a new facility and installing new machinery.

At risk of stating the obvious, streaming to networked devices is nothing new, Jcat/Jplay and Signalyst HQPlayer have been promoting this for maybe over a decade by now. This has been extensively trialled, mainly in the DIY world, for that same period of time. Jplay had their dual PC setup, one handling library management / user interface, the other being a maximally stripped down PC, ideally only having a network stack and audio driver, receiving an audio stream over the network and outputting through usb, spdif or direct i2s to the DAC. HQPlayer has their NAA (Network Audio Adapter) "seperating" the heavy workstation needed to being able to process their algorithms from the actual device feeding the DAC. Now none of these are Plug&Play solutions and require The younger startup Roon has quite succesfully managed to turning this, really the same, basic concept into an easy to operate, virtually Plug&Play system, leading to high-end manufacturers incorperating networked streaming endpoints into their products. At this point it may be important to note that Jplay and HQplayer focus on sound quality where Roon's main focus is on creating the ultimate user convenience / experience.

Some of the design goals of the original SGM2015 were:
1) To have enough horsepower to apply extremely heavy computational filters and to offer a smooth Roon browsing experience simultanuously combining the ultimate user experience with ultimate sound quality.
2) To have a single box solution outperforming a dual system setup.
3) Providing a high quality USB output capable of driving every DAC to its maximum potential and/or resolution.

We succeeded in doing just that however we have no control over the DAC's interface implementation and this is where things are getting less obvious. There are plenty of DAC's out there which just don't have very well implemented USB interfaces, in some of these the SPDIF interface outperforms the USB interface. Luckily manufacturers nowadays take a more extensive approach designing their USB interfaces where it used to be just a feature they annoyingly had to implement, but you'd be surprised how many still have stone age, sub par performing USB interfaces.

In the new SGM, next to having majorly improved Sound Quality, we will offer high quality output options to match the best performing interface in your dac. We have and are in the process of testing several USB, Ethernet, SPDIF, AES/EBU and even Thunderbolt output options.
 

microstrip

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(...)

1) To have enough horsepower to apply extremely heavy computational filters and to offer a smooth Roon browsing experience simultanuously combining the ultimate user experience with ultimate sound quality.(...)
(...)
We succeeded in doing just that however we have no control over the DAC's interface implementation and this is where things are getting less obvious. There are plenty of DAC's out there which just don't have very well implemented USB interfaces, in some of these the SPDIF interface outperforms the USB interface. Luckily manufacturers nowadays take a more extensive approach designing their USB interfaces where it used to be just a feature they annoyingly had to implement, but you'd be surprised how many still have stone age, sub par performing USB interfaces.

In the new SGM, next to having majorly improved Sound Quality, we will offer high quality output options to match the best performing interface in your dac. We have and are in the process of testing several USB, Ethernet, SPDIF, AES/EBU and even Thunderbolt output options.


Thanks.

Is there any reason, other than convenience, to insist in having just one CPU/system carrying all the work? It would apparently seem that a distributed approach - Roon for music selection, another machine/system for computational filters, if desired, and and a data cleaning system would solve the all problems.

Another question that can be asked is why someone having an Ethernet renderer should pay for a more complex system having USB and SPDIF.

And yes, I know that the proof of the pudding is in the eating!
 

Pb Blimp

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My apologies for the late reply, we are currently busier then usual expanding to a new facility and installing new machinery.

At risk of stating the obvious, streaming to networked devices is nothing new, Jcat/Jplay and Signalyst HQPlayer have been promoting this for maybe over a decade by now. This has been extensively trialled, mainly in the DIY world, for that same period of time. Jplay had their dual PC setup, one handling library management / user interface, the other being a maximally stripped down PC, ideally only having a network stack and audio driver, receiving an audio stream over the network and outputting through usb, spdif or direct i2s to the DAC. HQPlayer has their NAA (Network Audio Adapter) "seperating" the heavy workstation needed to being able to process their algorithms from the actual device feeding the DAC. Now none of these are Plug&Play solutions and require The younger startup Roon has quite succesfully managed to turning this, really the same, basic concept into an easy to operate, virtually Plug&Play system, leading to high-end manufacturers incorperating networked streaming endpoints into their products. At this point it may be important to note that Jplay and HQplayer focus on sound quality where Roon's main focus is on creating the ultimate user convenience / experience.

Some of the design goals of the original SGM2015 were:
1) To have enough horsepower to apply extremely heavy computational filters and to offer a smooth Roon browsing experience simultanuously combining the ultimate user experience with ultimate sound quality.
2) To have a single box solution outperforming a dual system setup.
3) Providing a high quality USB output capable of driving every DAC to its maximum potential and/or resolution.

We succeeded in doing just that however we have no control over the DAC's interface implementation and this is where things are getting less obvious. There are plenty of DAC's out there which just don't have very well implemented USB interfaces, in some of these the SPDIF interface outperforms the USB interface. Luckily manufacturers nowadays take a more extensive approach designing their USB interfaces where it used to be just a feature they annoyingly had to implement, but you'd be surprised how many still have stone age, sub par performing USB interfaces.

In the new SGM, next to having majorly improved Sound Quality, we will offer high quality output options to match the best performing interface in your dac. We have and are in the process of testing several USB, Ethernet, SPDIF, AES/EBU and even Thunderbolt output options.

Thank you! I have been looking for someone to optimize exactly whet you describe as far as sound quality (HQ), interface (Roon) and hardware (power isolation, grounding etc., etc.) but to do it around the ethernet output only. USB and SPIDF are backward looking IMO. Ethernet renderers like what MSB is doing with their Renderer 2 which go direct to I2S with the close physical proximity to the dacs clock are the way of the future. Yet all of the best designed inits are still coming with a lot of the the unit cost, and optimization committed to the dinosaurs. IMO the market is craving for a SGM type device with ethernet reclocking and optimized for ethernet output only.
 

Pb Blimp

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Thanks.

Is there any reason, other than convenience, to insist in having just one CPU/system carrying all the work? It would apparently seem that a distributed approach - Roon for music selection, another machine/system for computational filters, if desired, and and a data cleaning system would solve the all problems.

Another question that can be asked is why someone having an Ethernet renderer should pay for a more complex system having USB and SPDIF.

And yes, I know that the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

Yep.
 

microstrip

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(...) USB and SPIDF are backward looking IMO.(...)

Why should we think so?

IMHO no one has proved (and will never be able to prove) that Ethernet is intrinsically better than USB, although in our particular DACs we can have a preference. In the end all depends on the implementation, both formats are bit perfect.
 

Taiko Audio

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Thanks.
Is there any reason, other than convenience, to insist in having just one CPU/system carrying all the work? It would apparently seem that a distributed approach - Roon for music selection, another machine/system for computational filters, if desired, and and a data cleaning system would solve the all problems.

Unfortunately, there are no "cleaning systems" able to exclude the influence of the other parts of the system. The system containing your internet router, cabling, switch, FMC's, NAS, sources, renderers and so forth. It comes down to how influential each component is. I used to use multiple systems to do exactly what you are proposing in varying configurations for many years. We have attempted to design a single system which performs better then multiple systems, and it does, even distributing services over multiple SGM's does not improve SQ.

Another question that can be asked is why someone having an Ethernet renderer should pay for a more complex system having USB and SPDIF.

I can think of no reason other then maybe what will be hot next year or what your next DAC prefers to receive.

And yes, I know that the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

Yes, looking at your envisioned setup I think you may be surprised to find out that changing the power supplies or cabling on your internet router and "source" FMC, or even the quality of your FMC will still be audible despite the fibre "isolation".

It's probably clear by now that from my point of view / experience Ethernet renderers are just another interface. It does have clear benefits, easier to setup, a higher level of plug&play, you can get better results from "cheap" sources then you would with USB, however the influence of the quality of your source, cabling, preceding system setup is simply(unfortunately) not eliminated. The big downside is you may find yourself tweaking your networking environment, not something everybody will enjoy or be willing to spend significant money on.
 

Kingsrule

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I'm with Pb on this....no reason to have/pay for extreme implementations of USB, SPDIF etc. Hopefully it will all be optional. Or at least be able to be turned completely off.
 

Kingsrule

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In reading what Emile is saying about next years DAC, etc. I really think an all out server like the SGM EVO should be interface specific.....(I'll take the position that USB is dead technology)

"It's probably clear by now that from my point of view / experience Ethernet renderers are just another interface. It does have clear benefits, easier to setup, a higher level of plug&play, you can get better results from "cheap" sources then you would with USB, however the influence of the quality of your source, cabling, preceding system setup is simply(unfortunately) not eliminated. The big downside is you may find yourself tweaking your networking environment, not something everybody will enjoy or be willing to spend significant money on."

Also, Emile are you inferring that only ethernet requires tweaking the networking environment and that USB does not? Not sure what u mean here....
 

microstrip

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Unfortunately, there are no "cleaning systems" able to exclude the influence of the other parts of the system. The system containing your internet router, cabling, switch, FMC's, NAS, sources, renderers and so forth. It comes down to how influential each component is. (...) .

This is one of the mysteries of high-end digital. There is no rationale in our current approaches - theoretically and in practice you can write a few tracks of music in a memory SDD card and it will clean all Roon, Tidal, NAS, internet or similar history. Why can't we do it in an electronic system? Should people design a system with robotic arms that swap cards between writers and DAC readers? :)
 

Taiko Audio

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Thank you! I have been looking for someone to optimize exactly whet you describe as far as sound quality (HQ), interface (Roon) and hardware (power isolation, grounding etc., etc.) but to do it around the ethernet output only. USB and SPIDF are backward looking IMO. Ethernet renderers like what MSB is doing with their Renderer 2 which go direct to I2S with the close physical proximity to the dacs clock are the way of the future. Yet all of the best designed inits are still coming with a lot of the the unit cost, and optimization committed to the dinosaurs. IMO the market is craving for a SGM type device with ethernet reclocking and optimized for ethernet output only.

I'm with Pb on this....no reason to have/pay for extreme implementations of USB, SPDIF etc. Hopefully it will all be optional. Or at least be able to be turned completely off.

You're welcome! And yes the interface of choice will be optional. The "framework" however is 90% of the system. It's similar to the mentioned MSB select where you can choose which input modules you'd like to have. They're also easy to change later on should you so desire for whatever reason.

Why should we think so?

IMHO no one has proved (and will never be able to prove) that Ethernet is intrinsically better than USB, although in our particular DACs we can have a preference. In the end all depends on the implementation, both formats are bit perfect.

Maybe we should change "bit perfect" to "noise perfect" :) All joking aside, I agree it all depends on the implementation.
 

Kingsrule

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microstrip

This is one of the mysteries of HIGH END Audio, not just digital!
 

Kingsrule

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Emile

During all our communications I forgot to ask (LOL)

What is the lead time for the SGM EVO?
 

Taiko Audio

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I really think an all out server like the SGM EVO should be interface specific.....

Assuming that should read "the SGM EVO should NOT be interface specific" I agree.


Also, Emile are you inferring that only ethernet requires tweaking the networking environment and that USB does not? Not sure what u mean here....

To a lesser degree yes, using Ethernet as an interface makes it more worthwhile to tweak, you also all of a sudden have a multitude of connection options, for example direct copper ethernet, or FMC's with power supplies and a fibre channel cable, or Ethernet filters etc. We can actually also provide a direct glass fibre output which we are testing. All that is there for USB aswell though, however we designed the SGM around not benefiting from USB tweaks and we are putting in maximum effort to accomplish the same for Ethernet. This excludes cable "quality" which can still make a considerable difference for both. And there you go again, if an Ethernet renderer is insensitive to the source, then why does a different cable matter. The curses of being an Audiophile.

For completeness using USB as an interface will also benefit from tweaking your Ethernet environment if your source is a networked device but in this case it has little to do with the interface.
 

Taiko Audio

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Emile

During all our communications I forgot to ask (LOL)

What is the lead time for the SGM EVO?

We are aiming for August the 1st. There may be room for "loaner" demo SGM2015's upgraded to EVO spec before then in case of extreme emergencies ;)

Assuming that should read "the SGM EVO should NOT be interface specific" I agree.

For clarity purposes I'd like to rephrase this to "the SGM EVO should NOT be interface specific, but should be (re)configurable to extract the maximum from the interface of choice"
 

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