Turntable Shootout in Italy

ddk

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Another Ked classic but this line takes the cake, or the fish :).

"Many of Indian friends who have never had sushi before, think of spiced fried Indian fish or curry, then imagine that fish raw, and feel disgusted at the thought of sushi."

david
 
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analyzer

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it's pretty simple; at the top of the food chain the tubes are more rounded and holographic (they are here), solid state resolves lots more space, granular detail, openness, and fine textures of things (we are there).

neither are totally real...…..since real music is not all the way to either extreme. choose your artifact.[/QUOTE]

This is a quite perfect synthesis Mike, well-said!
it's many years that I try to post (into Italian's audio forum) that many differences that audio passionates hear comes from a different perspective.
You must prefer to have the performers into your own room (they are here) or to join the concert hall and listen (we are there...).
This is my personal approach.
Marco
 

PeterA

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after having the ML3's and darts together...….it's pretty simple; at the top of the food chain the tubes are more rounded and holographic (they are here), solid state resolves lots more space, granular detail, openness, and fine textures of things (we are there).

neither are totally real...…..since real music is not all the way to either extreme. choose your artifact.

That is interesting, Mike. Thanks for that summary. If choosing between one or the other, I would prefer to be transported there. It seems to me that the system would be more transparent and revealing of the recording if it could do that. I would find it difficult to believe that both a full orchestra playing Beethoven's 9th at the BSO and the girl with guitar in a small cafe could sound similarly present and convincing in the confines of my listening room. I always thought that if it seems as though the performer is in the listening room with you then some aspect of the listening room acoustic remains with the music and obscures the acoustic of the recording venue so the listener can't hear it.

Now, I have never directly compared tube to SS electronics in my system and room, so I can not speak to such generalizations about typology. However, I think the distinction between "you are there" and "they are here" is a testament to how transparent the system is and how closely it can reproduce the information on the recording. I think Ron started a thread on this very topic.
 

Ron Resnick

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after having the ML3's and darts together...….it's pretty simple; at the top of the food chain the tubes are more rounded and holographic (they are here), solid state resolves lots more space, granular detail, openness, and fine textures of things (we are there).

neither are totally real...…..since real music is not all the way to either extreme. choose your artifact.

The difference in sonic venue results between tube and solid-state is interesting and, apparently consistent. Thank you for confirming.
 

bonzo75

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That is interesting, Mike. Thanks for that summary. If choosing between one or the other, I would prefer to be transported there. It seems to me that the system would be more transparent and revealing of the recording if it could do that. I would find it difficult to believe that both a full orchestra playing Beethoven's 9th at the BSO and the girl with guitar in a small cafe could sound similarly present and convincing in the confines of my listening room. I always thought that if it seems as though the performer is in the listening room with you then some aspect of the listening room acoustic remains with the music and obscures the acoustic of the recording venue so the listener can't hear it.

Now, I have never directly compared tube to SS electronics in my system and room, so I can not speak to such generalizations about typology. However, I think the distinction between "you are there" and "they are here" is a testament to how transparent the system is and how closely it can reproduce the information on the recording. I think Ron started a thread on this very topic.

Peter, I think you are in danger of jumping to an incorrect conclusion based on words. Hence my suggestion you need both. Btw I use Beethoven 9th regularly for auditions. And by in the room, a valve phono does not make it sound intimate like a girl in a cafe.

As you know Ian had the Soulution, was unhappy, and was almost going to get a valve phono when he found CH
 

PeterA

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Peter, I think you are in danger of jumping to an incorrect conclusion based on words. Hence my suggestion you need both. Btw I use Beethoven 9th regularly for auditions. And by in the room, a valve phono does not make it sound intimate like a girl in a cafe.

As you know Ian had the Soulution, was unhappy, and was almost going to get a valve phono when he found CH

Ked, I don't understand what you mean. What is the incorrect conclusion and what words? What do you mean by needing both? Both SS and tube, or both "They are here" and "I am there"? Could you please be more specific?

Ian also had the Pass XS Phono and liked it very much. I happen to think he sold it prematurely, but the CH is also extremely good in his system.
 

bonzo75

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I think you read the words and said you would prefer one over the other. Or at least I interpreted that you would prefer the I am there of the SS phono, and tube phono was a girl in a cafe. I have done tube SS phono compares and oscillate. There isn't a clear decision if both are of good quality
 

KeithR

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Now, I have never directly compared tube to SS electronics in my system and room, so I can not speak to such generalizations about typology. However, I think the distinction between "you are there" and "they are here" is a testament to how transparent the system is and how closely it can reproduce the information on the recording. I think Ron started a thread on this very topic.

You've never owned a piece of tube gear? really?
 

lordcloud

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I always thought that if it seems as though the performer is in the listening room with you then some aspect of the listening room acoustic remains with the music and obscures the acoustic of the recording venue so the listener can't hear it.

I've had this same thought. Though when my system is configured in a way that the music is in the room with me versus the venue being there with me, I feel as though my system is highest in resolution and most correct sounding at that point.
 

PeterA

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I think you read the words and said you would prefer one over the other. Or at least I interpreted that you would prefer the I am there of the SS phono, and tube phono was a girl in a cafe. I have done tube SS phono compares and oscillate. There isn't a clear decision if both are of good quality

I see your point. Thanks, Ked. I prefer the "concept" of "I am there" because it implies a greater variety of different musical experiences with both scale of performance and venue. I would prefer to be in an intimate cafe setting hearing the girl play guitar and singing than having her do the same in my listening room, if that makes sense.

I agree that based on great examples of both SS and tube gear that I have heard in other systems, I have no preference based on typology or perceived strengths. I just want whichever sounds more convincing and like the real thing. What I own depends on other factors as well, like reliability, maintenance, and what better drives my particular speakers.
 

PeterA

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You've never owned a piece of tube gear? really?

I owned some tube gear years ago when I was younger, I think, but I can't be sure. I did not pay much attention back then. Since I got back into the hobby in 1993 or so, I have only had SS Pass amplifiers. Really. My audio friends have had all types and brands, and I have formed my preferences in part by listening to their systems. So it goes.
 

bonzo75

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Ok thanks understand.

On another note you are too loyal to all your brands.
 

PeterA

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On another note you are too loyal to all your brands.

Interesting comment. So far, after listening to quite a few alternatives, I have found no reason not to be. In fact, as the years go by and my degree of satisfaction increases, I have even less desire to change brands. There are many factors involved. Thank you for your opinion.
 
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Tango

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I see your point. Thanks, Ked. I prefer the "concept" of "I am there" because it implies a greater variety of different musical experiences with both scale of performance and venue. I would prefer to be in an intimate cafe setting hearing the girl play guitar and singing than having her do the same in my listening room, if that makes sense.

It seems like you and a few people think that variety of different musical experiences with both scale of performance and venue cannot be achieved with the system that have a presentation of they are here in your room. In a way, I agree and in a way I don’t agree. What I dont agree is A girl singing in a cafe can be in your room together with the atmosphere, sense of air and boundary creating the they are here in your room not I am there. I might sound a bit confusing but my point is the intimacy of music can actually comes together with the atmosphere. You can have a sense that the girl is in your room yet the atmosphere, the cues, surrounded her is not your room but the venue that she is singing in. I think the kind of presentation I said is still they are here in front of you.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

PeterA

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It seems like you and a few people think that variety of different musical experiences with both scale of performance and venue cannot be achieved with the system that have a presentation of they are here in your room. In a way, I agree and in a way I don’t agree. What I dont agree is A girl singing in a cafe can be in your room together with the atmosphere, sense of air and boundary creating the they are here in your room not I am there. I might sound a bit confusing but my point is the intimacy of music can actually comes together with the atmosphere. You can have a sense that the girl is in your room yet the atmosphere, the cues, surrounded her is not your room but the venue that she is singing in. I think the kind of presentation I said is still they are here in front of you.

Kind regards,
Tang

If I feel transported to that small cafe with the girl singing in front of me, she is still there singing in front of me with the sound, acoustic and atmosphere of the cafe. If I don't hear all of that ambiance, then the perspective may seem more like she is in front of me in my listening room. I think it depends on what information is on the recording and if the system can reproduce it in a convincing manner.
 

awsmone

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I have to say for me it varies

Some intimate music jazz, solo piano, small chamber I feel they are in the room
Other recording especially large orchestra, opera, it feel like I am in the venue

For me it seems more a function of the recording than my equipment

Venue ambience seems enhanced with tube or Lamm

For example Brahms violin sonata is live performance , Oistrach is right there in front of me to stage right, piano behind but I hear people coughing and the echo of the piano upstage

I find this one hard to interpret, am I there, or they here ?

Oscar Peterson DSD tall band, i here people laughing and clinking glasses, yet the xylophone is right there in front of you, the people talking way upstage, almost like my music room opens into the nightclub, it’s an interesting effect
 

bazelio

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"They are here" vs "You are there"... As others have said, it has to be a function of both the recording and the content. You'll never convince me "they are here" in any listening room when the content is large orchestra. So if my listening contained a large majority of orchestral performances, then I want "you are there". But by the same token, and as mentioned, I love "they are here" for smaller more intimate music. They other day it seemed like I could have reached out and touched Norah Jones. Not that I would. Either way, though, if the recording is more "20th row" vs "2nd row" then "you are there" is the best outcome.

Mike's quick qualitative summation was great, but I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion. I also agree with a lot of what others have said. But, without all the inner detail and subtle queues passed through the reproduction chain, then the listening experience is less intimate and therefore less likely to convey "they are here" for me, most of the time. I also disagree that tube recording equipment makes tube reproduction a logical choice. In fact perhaps the opposite. Sure some will always prefer the sound of open distortion, but tube phono into tube preamp into tube amp is never going to be transparent. And a high degree of transparency might just be the single most effective way to transport either the listener or the performer to another place, with the nature of the recording itself then being the arbiter of direction...
 

bonzo75

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"They are here" vs "You are there"... As others have said, it has to be a function of both the recording and the content. You'll never convince me "they are here" in any listening room when the content is large orchestra. So if my listening contained a large majority of orchestral performances, then I want "you are there". But by the same token, and as mentioned, I love "they are here" for smaller more intimate music. They other day it seemed like I could have reached out and touched Norah Jones. Not that I would. Either way, though, if the recording is more "20th row" vs "2nd row" then "you are there" is the best outcome.

Mike's quick qualitative summation was great, but I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion. I also agree with a lot of what others have said. But, without all the inner detail and subtle queues passed through the reproduction chain, then the listening experience is less intimate and therefore less likely to convey "they are here" for me, most of the time. I also disagree that tube recording equipment makes tube reproduction a logical choice. In fact perhaps the opposite. Sure some will always prefer the sound of open distortion, but tube phono into tube preamp into tube amp is never going to be transparent. And a high degree of transparency might just be the single most effective way to transport either the listener or the performer to another place, with the nature of the recording itself then being the arbiter of direction...

There are a lot of biases there.

And tubes were used to record, does not mean they have to be used to reproduce. Quite possibly, if SS is indeed more transparent, something recorded with tubes should be reproduced with SS
But a lot of SS equipment is not transparent. Just because it does not have the tube color, does not mean it does not have its own transistor tonally grey colors.
And the words "they are here" are being misinterpreted to mean the orchestra will be in some cuddly intimate setting. This is incorrect as well.
Both are extremely effective. There is no reason for people to choose sides. The only ones who will lose are those who stay firmly in one camp thinking they have the here and there figured out without actually listening without bias.
 

bazelio

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There are a lot of biases there.

And tubes were used to record, does not mean they have to be used to reproduce. Quite possibly, if SS is indeed more transparent, something recorded with tubes should be reproduced with SS
But a lot of SS equipment is not transparent. Just because it does not have the tube color, does not mean it does not have its own transistor tonally grey colors.
And the words "they are here" are being misinterpreted to mean the orchestra will be in some cuddly intimate setting. This is incorrect as well.
Both are extremely effective. There is no reason for people to choose sides. The only ones who will lose are those who stay firmly in one camp thinking they have the here and there figured out without actually listening without bias.

We're all biased by experience, but that doesn't mean we can't gain additional experiences as we go. You seem to have made a lot of assumptions, TBH. I've changed directions and opinions on the best way to achieve the sound I have in my head many times over. The tube recording vs reproduction was a response to a previous post. And I haven't said that all SS is transparent. It most certainly is not. Class A is generally not transparent. Class AB is generally more so. Benchmark AHB2 fits the bill as a highly transparent SS amplifier, as one example.

Lastly, I'm really not sure what "they are here" means for orchestra. But if a listening room and chain can faithfully reproduce "you are there" for orchestral pieces - that's impressive. Mine has no hope.
 

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