Fremer says 9" arms are inherently superior?

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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I saw that and no mention of effective mass of the tonearm.

Peter, the effective mass of a tonearm, is that something all manufacturers mentioned in their specs?
_____

Extra:

https://vertereacoustics.com/tonearms/vertere-reference-tonearm-2/
http://vinyl-club.blogspot.ca/p/analog-tonearm-pivot.html

The effective mass of the vocal

"Arm The "effective mass" of an Effective Mass vocal arm does not refer to the weight of the entire arm, but to the mass of the moving part.

It must be measured before it can be obtained. We are not counting our own calculations.

...

Example: The effective mass of the

Morch DP-6 The Morch DP-6 offers four different quality arm tubes, namely... 4 g (green), 6 g (red), 8 g (yellow), 14 g (blue) in the

end to choose one?! depending on the weight of your cartridge, depending on the extent.

...

Why do we need to know the weight, the order, and the effective mass of the phono?

Because the pickup (needle) is itself a resonant body, the singing arm is also, and after the combination of the two things, it will generate a "new" resonance frequency.

In order to avoid resonance noises, even if the pickup head is "resonated" in resonance,

we must control the resonance frequency beyond the ear-sensitive range (< 12 Hz),

and we must avoid the extremely low-frequency resonance noise (> = 8 Hz).

Therefore, the effective mass of the arm must match the weight of the pickup

so that the resonance frequency falls within the ideal range: 8 - 11 Hz.

(Some data suggest 5 - 15 Hz, or other, but the wider the range, the greater the risk of resonance.)

The resonance frequency of the phono + pickup (in Hz)

= ? (1 / ((MC + EA)* C)) / (2 * ?)
= ? (1 / (((MC + EA)*C)) / 6.2832
= ? (1 / (((MC + EA)*C) / 39.4786)
= ? (0.0253 / (( MC + EA)* C))
= 0.159 / ? ((MC + EA)* C) (PS This C is cm/dyne)
= 159 / ? ((MC + EA)* C) (PS This C unit is 10^-6 cm/dyne)

where...

? : 3.1416

MC : Weight of the pickup, which must include screws and washers.. (Unit g)

EA : Effective mass of the horn (unit g)

C : Player at 10 Hz Dynamic compliance (in units of 10^-6 cm/dyne, or um/mN, or cu)

...

To control the resonance frequency between 08 - 11 Hz ...

then 08 < 159 / ? ((MC + EA) * C) < 11

ie 208.9326 <(MC + EA) * C < 395.0156

When C = 05 Then 41.787 <(MC + EA) < 79.003
when C = 10 then 20.893 <(MC + EA) < 39.502
when C = 15 then 13.929 <(MC + EA) < 26.334
when C = 20 then 10.447 <(MC + EA) < 19.751

... In

accordance with this formula, we know that ...

low degree of compliance (< 10 cu) pickup ... is suitable for "heavy" quality tone arms.

Medium compliance (10 - 20 cu) pickup......... suits the "Middle" quality tone arm.

High obedience (> 20 cu) pickup.................. fits with a "light" mass horn.

As for the quality of the detailed arm, it depends on the weight of the cartridge you choose.

...

However, this is just a theory. In fact, the situation in which resonance occurs is complex and still depends on the material and design of the turntable, the horn, and the pickup.

So, you'll find out... Some sings arms don't provide valid quality data at all,

and some sings arm offers collocation advice, "maybe." The results calculated from the formula are not the same.

Therefore, how to choose the phono + phono arm, in

addition to theory, it is best to "reference" the experience of previous generations.

...

PS has a cymbal damper designed horn, which can control resonance by the amount and type of oleophobic, and has a large elasticity."

...

_____

Prices (MSRP - tonearm and tonearm cable) ... only high heels need to apply ($63,000 Cdn):
http://www.element-acoustics.ca/products.php?cid=1&sid=4&tid=0&pid=2326

Down to planet analog Earth:
http://www.the-ear.net/news/affordable-vertere-tonearm
 
Last edited:

microstrip

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IMHO one real reason for a 12" tonearm is increasing the platter diameter. The moment of inertia increases with the radius squared, a 20 kg platter with an increased radius of 40% more will be equivalent to a 40 kg platter. It is why I admire the EMT 927. :)
 

TLi

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May 27, 2016
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We all know everything in vinyl system is a compromise, there is no absolute correct answer to any question. At the end of day, it is the personal preference that matters.

A few years back when I first bought Air Force One turntable, I want to have a 10” Graham Elite arm for it, seemed a natural choice at the time. When I went to the dealer shop, 10” version was out of stock, the last one was sold a few days ago. They had 9” and 12” for me to choose. The salesman did not recommend me to wait for the next shipment as Graham delivery time was very unpredictable.

I asked the very experienced salesman there how to choose. That salesman had over 20 year experience in selling and setting up vinyl systems. He said if you had large loudspeakers in a big room, buy 9” for higher resolution and more focused imaging. On the other hand, 12” was better for smaller systems in smaller rooms as 12” could project bigger picture, stronger bass and dynamic. I bought a 9” then.

After digesting all the information gathered in this forum, now I understand what the salesman said and he is right. If high resolution is what you want, a shorter arm will provide it for you. If large sound stage and fuller sound are your preference, you need 12” arm. For me, I choose 9”.
 

rossb

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May 24, 2017
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We all know everything in vinyl system is a compromise, there is no absolute correct answer to any question. At the end of day, it is the personal preference that matters.

A few years back when I first bought Air Force One turntable, I want to have a 10” Graham Elite arm for it, seemed a natural choice at the time. When I went to the dealer shop, 10” version was out of stock, the last one was sold a few days ago. They had 9” and 12” for me to choose. The salesman did not recommend me to wait for the next shipment as Graham delivery time was very unpredictable.

I asked the very experienced salesman there how to choose. That salesman had over 20 year experience in selling and setting up vinyl systems. He said if you had large loudspeakers in a big room, buy 9” for higher resolution and more focused imaging. On the other hand, 12” was better for smaller systems in smaller rooms as 12” could project bigger picture, stronger bass and dynamic. I bought a 9” then.

After digesting all the information gathered in this forum, now I understand what the salesman said and he is right. If high resolution is what you want, a shorter arm will provide it for you. If large sound stage and fuller sound are your preference, you need 12” arm. For me, I choose 9”.

I think the only thing the salesman was right about was how to convince you to buy the expensive arms he had in stock rather than wait for the one you actually wanted to buy. This shows that he certainly was a very experienced salesman.

As to the 9 inch arm being better for large speakers in a big room and 12 inch arm for smaller systems, I am stupefied that anyone could seriously make such a ridiculous statement.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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IMO, the length of the arm should really be secondary to many other factors...for example, the type of bearing, the type of headshell and how it is affixed, the arm cabling, the arm mounting scheme, the overall construction quality of the arm, the adjustability of the arm ( or lack thereof) the compliance of the arm..and perhaps most important of all: the compatibility of the arm with the table and/or cartridge in question. One thing also to consider, many tables are unable to accommodate the longer arms..so a 12" isn't going to be practical. SME, as an example, re-designed their table to accommodate the longer 12" arm. Presumably they felt that the 12" arm choice was a desirable factor; at least enough so to bring out the 30/12 series.
 

NorthStar

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I think the only thing the salesman was right about was how to convince you to buy the expensive arms he had in stock rather than wait for the one you actually wanted to buy. This shows that he certainly was a very experienced salesman.

As to the 9 inch arm being better for large speakers in a big room and 12 inch arm for smaller systems, I am stupefied that anyone could seriously make such a ridiculous statement.

I think the salesman was being honest.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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I asked the very experienced salesman there how to choose. That salesman had over 20 year experience in selling and setting up vinyl systems. He said if you had large loudspeakers in a big room, buy 9” for higher resolution and more focused imaging. On the other hand, 12” was better for smaller systems in smaller rooms as 12” could project bigger picture, stronger bass and dynamic. I bought a 9” then.

:eek: ;)You’re right, he was a VERY experienced SALESMAN :rolleyes: !

david
 

bonzo75

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Lol
 

Ron Resnick

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I think the only thing the salesman was right about was how to convince you to buy the expensive arms he had in stock rather than wait for the one you actually wanted to buy. This shows that he certainly was a very experienced salesman.

As to the 9 inch arm being better for large speakers in a big room and 12 inch arm for smaller systems, I am stupefied that anyone could seriously make such a ridiculous statement.

+1
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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IMHO one real reason for a 12" tonearm is increasing the platter diameter. The moment of inertia increases with the radius squared, a 20 kg platter with an increased radius of 40% more will be equivalent to a 40 kg platter. It is why I admire the EMT 927. :)

It is also something that I like with my Yamaha GT-2000, which has a nicely oversized platter and an arm that is around 11 inches. Speed stability is totally superb and it sounds that way too!
 

mikem

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Mar 11, 2014
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Interest in 12in SAT

The upcoming TechDAS Air Force Zero uses a 16" platter, 12" arm is the shortest possible length for it. This is, I guess, is the reason for a 12" SAT arm, i.e. to be used in Air Force Zero.

Another market for the 12” SAT is TechDas AF1 and AF2 turntable owners who can only fit a 12” arm in the second arm position.

- Michael
 

Tango

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Another market for the 12” SAT is TechDas AF1 and AF2 turntable owners who can only fit a 12” arm in the second arm position.

Why would an AF1 owner wants to put a more expensive SAT 12” on the second arm. If he wanted a SAT, he likely has bought “the original” SAT already and put as the first arm. If he has not bought the very expensive original one, it is likely that he would not pay for the even more expensive newer version, pricing was already a barrier for consideration for him at the first place. There are also other alternative uber arms to consider such as the new Thales Statement, Axiom Full Titanium if the existing owner of SAT/AF1 wants a second arm.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

ddk

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Another market for the 12” SAT is TechDas AF1 and AF2 turntable owners who can only fit a 12” arm in the second arm position.

- Michael

Actually you can use 9"-12" arms in the 2nd position, ie rear armboard, but you're limited to max 10" in the first portion.

david
 

Tango

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Actually you can use 9"-12" arms in the 2nd position, ie rear armboard, but you're limited to max 10" in the first portion.

Actually you can put even longer than 12” arm wand on the first position of AF1 Khun David.
I think the rather big round base of SAT 9” prohibit the installation as the rear arm.

99B335C2-72C7-4149-A3C8-C427D53A05E8.jpeg

Tang
 

bonzo75

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NorthStar

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Two of them, from both extreme length...shortest (standard) and longest (tubular).

* Steve, in your room, with your setup, your cartridges, your phono preamp, which arm do you prefer?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Two of them, from both extreme length...shortest (standard) and longest (tubular).

* Steve, in your room, with your setup, your cartridges, your phono preamp, which arm do you prefer?

My SME 3012R. I rarely use my Graham Phantom Elite with Ortofon Anna
 

NorthStar

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Interesting, and this subject is interesting too.

I sent a photograph by email to a friend last year, of a turntable with four arms.
He asked me what it was, he wasn't sure about a turntable; the four arms, like spider legs, confused him I guess. And he's a professional musician who recorded in studios and has few original lacquer of his music.

Mike Lavigne, David, Peter, Marc, Tang, and all the other analog vinyl audiophiles here @ WBF; how long are their arms? Michael Fremer's arm, how long?
 

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