Fremer says 9" arms are inherently superior?

Fsonicsmith

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Jun 25, 2015
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In the latest issue of S'Phile Mikey, in the course of reviewing the 9" version of the Kuzma 4Point arm, declares the inherent superiority of 9" arms on the basis of less moment of inertia and higher rigidity. He has made such references in the past. I have no doubt he believes this but I am surprised that he cites to theoretical aspects only, and that his beliefs defy the historical collective consciousness of thousands of vinyl enthusiasts. I fully understand and accept that errors in cartridge alignment become magnified with a 12" arm but the difference that 1.5 or 3 inches of tonearm can make in relative moment of inertia would seem minuscule and Mikey's citation to stereo grooves and horizontal and vertical compliance causing minimum moment of inertia to be critical regardless of how flat the record is seems far-fetched. In my. case, I just ordered a 12" Reed 3P in cocobo from the importer and while talking to him, I was informed that he can't recall the last time he sold the 9" version of that arm and he frankly has no idea why Mr. Triukas even offers the 9" since the 10.5 and 12 far outperform it. I have no regrets going with the 12". For starters, a 9" will not accept an outer ring and I use one. But my question is; is Mikey as wrong as I think he is?
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Can't say if MF is wrong about the 9" vs 12" or 10.5" statement, although I do see his reasoning. However, he also mentions in the same article that the new Kuzma 4point 9 would be compatible with the Linn LP12 platform; which Frank Kuzma apparently had in mind when he designed the new arm. Unfortunately, the Kuzma 4point 9 is in fact NOT that compatible with the Linn LP12! Several owners in Europe have tried this combo, all have come away very disappointed. Question is whether MF actually tried the arm on a LP12 before writing that statement...I seriously doubt it!
 

Folsom

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Oct 25, 2015
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While a 9" may have less moving mass than a 12" arm... the 9" arm also moves a lot more than the 12" arm...

I'd have to see some actual data to support his claim that those are the reasons why. I'm not saying that it isn't possible 9" sound better, but his reasoning seems meaningless.
 

microstrip

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We can ask the question in a different way - why are 10.5" or 12" arms superior?
 

Fsonicsmith

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Jun 25, 2015
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We can ask the question in a different way - why are 10.5" or 12" arms superior?

Less tracking error and as mentioned, less movement of the arm in both the vertical and horizontal planes with any given force. Finer adjustment of VTA and SRA are possible. AS becomes less critical with longer arm length. A longer arm can be designed to absorb more energy transmitted by the plinth/motor and better isolate the cartridge from that vibration energy. The tonearm pillar and pivot point, which are not necessarily the same (e.g. the Reed 3P design) are further from the spindle and platter bearing which can mean less vibration energy to that critical area. And as mentioned, with a longer S-P distance, the table can accommodate a peripheral/outer ring clamp. Few 9" arms will accommodate an outer ring, if any. And then there is 80 years more or less of empirical listening that despite huge advancements in cartridge technology (and only relatively meager changes in turntable technology) support the use of longer arms.
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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If you guys were truly interested in less tracking error, you should be looking at the tangential tonearm like models from Schroeder, Thales, KLA.and alike.

Makes the debating about 9, 10, 10.5 or 12 inch arms quite amusing as they all have tracking error all over the record.

Cheers
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Canberra Australia
The moment of inertia question, I would suggest really relates to correcting back to alignment when displaced, this is a two way effect, as High mass arms are less deflected but correct slower, would require a bit of maths, and suggest depending on the masses, and displacement force, either could be superior.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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In the latest issue of S'Phile Mikey, in the course of reviewing the 9" version of the Kuzma 4Point arm, declares the inherent superiority of 9" arms on the basis of less moment of inertia and higher rigidity. He has made such references in the past. I have no doubt he believes this but I am surprised that he cites to theoretical aspects only, and that his beliefs defy the historical collective consciousness of thousands of vinyl enthusiasts. I fully understand and accept that errors in cartridge alignment become magnified with a 12" arm but the difference that 1.5 or 3 inches of tonearm can make in relative moment of inertia would seem minuscule and Mikey's citation to stereo grooves and horizontal and vertical compliance causing minimum moment of inertia to be critical regardless of how flat the record is seems far-fetched. In my. case, I just ordered a 12" Reed 3P in cocobo from the importer and while talking to him, I was informed that he can't recall the last time he sold the 9" version of that arm and he frankly has no idea why Mr. Triukas even offers the 9" since the 10.5 and 12 far outperform it. I have no regrets going with the 12". For starters, a 9" will not accept an outer ring and I use one. But my question is; is Mikey as wrong as I think he is?

I would like to tackle the errors of alignment issue

12 inch arms have less tracking error if properly aligned 80940C43-4F83-4385-890E-7D99C7454FA2.jpg

However alignment errors can have bigger effects on longer arms
19A4986F-14FB-4EC5-B61A-95547641A415.jpg

A9AF94DD-F28F-40C4-9BB9-E01E01FB7674.jpg
 

Folsom

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The longer arms will have a lower resonance. That should be a good thing, but to old ears perhaps not.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Here is modelling showing how mechanical damping effects frequency response

This is using the Hagerman model as the basis
12EB6137-7F9B-4B8B-8077-4A830D3F5C50.jpg
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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Vertere Reference (tonearm)



$36,000 US

9", 10", 11" or 12" ... what's best?
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/02/vertere-reference-tonearm-review.html
___

"As the first tone emitted from my reference loudspeaker then, the Egglestonwork Ivy Signature, our jaw dropped and in awe. My guests whispered to me, "you are dead!". They signaled me that this is a must in my analogue set up."



Regarding the Vertere Reference Tonearm;

"This piece of design and precision engineering is the Best tonearm on the planet primarily because of its unique design addressing issues that have both never been quite understood and never tackled. One of which being the effective length of the tonearm."


 
Last edited:

rossb

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2017
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I have owned both the 9 inch and 11 inch versions of the 4 Point. I also had the 9 inch and 12 inch versions of the Stogi Reference. In each case, the longer arm was better. In the case of the 4 Point, the 11 inch is significantly better than the 9 inch. I could hear absolutely no advantage to the 9 inch versions of any of these arms. However, the story may be different with other manufacturers.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Canberra Australia
I have presented some objective data, but I have to admit, owning 9 inch and three 10inch arms, when I got a 12 inch arm, what I noticed most was the ease of the tracking, the arm seemed to glide through its arc, compared with shorter arms, which often look a bit frenetic, on their path

The issue of inertia and resonance may be more important than misalignment , which is more an issue with offset and overhang than pivot placement

Although MF is correct as far as he goes, these may not be the important issues, in terms of reproduction

I was interested that mechanical damping has such a big impact on the frequency response, and thus higher inertia may be desirable, though I haven’t had a chance to check this premise yet....
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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I haven't read the article but if OP is true why is higher rigidity better for the sound? What type of design are we taking about? Do we have measurements of at least a dozen or so arms to accept this as a fact? I wonder what happens when the manufacturer claiming 9"'s sonic superiority introduces a 12" arm :D! Probably at a higher cost too!

Size matters tracking distortion and proper geometry are easy to measure, is there really anyone who claims less tracking error with 9" arms?

david
 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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Maybe just flexing audio critic muscle to see how big of a commercial stampede he can create. Must be an irresistible temptation after a while.
 

TLi

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May 27, 2016
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12" arm certainly has less tracking error but more vibration than 9". It is a balance or battle between tracking error and wand vibration.

SAT designer, Marc Gomez, said wand vibration control has a much stronger impact on the sound than tracking error. The whole arm vibrates while in use. Anything on the arm changes the sound, different headshell, different cartridge screws and even the torque on the screws change the sound. If tracking error is so critical, why can't we hear the difference in sound playing the outer and inner tracks? There are only two null points on the disc and anywhere away from them should degrade the sound. Most people, me included, don't notice any difference throughout the disc.


Wand vibration acts as resonator. It vibrates with the music. Longer the arm, the more resonance. It can be a good thing to some people, but it will reduce the resolution.

Shorter arm or the shortest possible arm will have the best vibration control and smallest inertia. It sounds better although it has more tracking error. This is my thought. Disclaimation: I use a SAT arm.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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12" arm certainly has less tracking error but more vibration than 9". It is a balance or battle between tracking error and wand vibration.
Huh? Where do you get this from?

SAT designer, Marc Gomez, said wand vibration control has a much stronger impact on the sound than tracking error. The whole arm vibrates while in use.

Could be true of the SAT but does that mean that every other tonearm on the market has structural issues? Exactly what type of vibration we're talking about here?

Anything on the arm changes the sound, different headshell, different cartridge screws and even the torque on the screws change the sound. If tracking error is so critical, why can't we hear the difference in sound playing the outer and inner tracks? There are only two null points on the disc and anywhere away from them should degrade the sound. Most people, me included, don't notice any difference throughout the disc.

Of course everything including tracking will affect the sound, including distortion!

Wand vibration acts as resonator. It vibrates with the music. Longer the arm, the more resonance. It can be a good thing to some people, but it will reduce the resolution.

Shorter arm or the shortest possible arm will have the best vibration control and smallest inertia. It sounds better although it has more tracking error. This is my thought. Disclaimation: I use a SAT arm.

Is that why Marc's coming out with a 12" version for $50k?:)

david
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
Maybe just flexing audio critic muscle to see how big of a commercial stampede he can create. Must be an irresistible temptation after a while.

I don't know the article OP is referring to but I'd be very surprised if Fremer made such a universal claim about 9" arms, vibration, arm rigidity, etc..

david
 

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