Crossover Points and Augmented Wideband Driver Speakers

Cellcbern

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Over the years I've owned a number of different speakers - KLH, Cerwin Vega, Polk, Opera Audio, Ars Aures, and Merlin VSM. One thing they all had in common was a crossover point in the 2000 hz (+ or -) range. I've read reviews of speakers where the reviewer claimed to be able to hear the crossover point, manifested as some sort of discontinuity. I've never heard that. My Merlin VSM's for example sounded completely seamless. Yet my new Bache Audio Metro 001 speakers, with a single wideband driver covering the range of 400 hz to 10,000 hz, augmented by a woofer and a super tweeter, sounds different from all of these other speakers. The midrange of the Bache 001's is cleaner, more coherent, more natural than I have heard before. Music flows from the speakers in a more relaxed manner, and subjectively dynamic range is greater, with no etch or brightness, and no loss of resolution compared with the Merlins. I have to conclude that Bache's design has an inherent advantage over more traditional designs with a crossover point or points in the midrange frequencies. I wonder why more speaker designers haven't tried this approach?
 
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spiritofmusic

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Hi Cellcbern, I’m running Zu Definitions Mk 4 spkrs that run full range drivers 37Hz-12kHz, Radian supertweeters 12kHz-20kHz+, Emminence Lab12 subs 37Hz-16Hz.
I’m totally sold on the sound.
It’s taken me a decade to get things to absolutely gel, esp re bass integration w main full range drivers, but I would only swap out the Zus for a stellar horns alternative.
The main technical issue that holds full range drivers concept back from more general acceptance by designers is I believe in the difficulty of implementing the whizzer cone concept correctly, where the upper frequencies from the full range drivers can harden and break up, leading to some harshness in the 10-12kHz frequency band. This can lead to some loss of transparency and smoothness into the supertweeter.
Zu have been getting this right for 18 years now, starting w the original Druid, and I don’t perceive any issues here w my Def 4s.
Hope this helps.
 
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Cellcbern

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Yes - I've heard the Zu's at Capital Audiofest - very impressive. Interestingly, the reviews of Bache's larger 002 models which feature an 8" Tangband wide band driver say that designer Greg Belman's removal of the whizzer cone was one of the key steps in perfecting the design.
 

spiritofmusic

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Sure
But by definition an 8” driver won’t reach down as low as a 10.6” driver, and my Zus go down to sub 40Hz full range.
 

spiritofmusic

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Cellcbern, there are more similarities than differences between your Baches and my Zus.

Your q about not being aware of a certain deficit, only becoming aware of it when you go to the next stage, try a different component, tech or approach, is quite common.

So Zu proudly claim the combination of full range drivers with no discontinuity and crossover-sapping energy drain, and high efficiency, reproduce music with more tone density and texture, more “gestalt of the note”, than other spkrs where the reproduced tonal spectrum is more discontinuous between multiple drivers with tightly defined frequency bands.

On paper this looks somewhat presumptuous and tbh pretentious, I mean my previous ProAcs were pretty good over their self imposed limits, despite utilising ribbon tweeters, OB mids and sealed woofers.

However it only took 5 minutes in the demo to realise that this phenomenon exists, and IMHO leaves a lot of other spkrs sounding texturally and tonally flawed, grainy and non immersive.

In my case it took 5 mins to be convinced by 95% of what the Zus could uniquely offer me, and the next decade over 2 models, including major mods to current pair, to get the last 5% LOL.

So, what’s the story on yr Baches?
 

andromedaaudio

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Usually the membrane of those units that can go relatively flat to that freq range are also heavy .
By the way if there are any i dont think ive found a good flat 400 - 10 kHz unit.
Horn reenforced will be different
Remember 10 000. Cylcles is fast.
And for a unit to do Both 400. Hz and 10 kHz ain't easy.
IT Will also matter a lot what music you listen too.
To say IT another way what you ask IT to do well
 
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DaveC

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I agree the augmented wideband is a superior design. My speaker covers 400-15,000 Hz at ~102 dB efficiency and using only a single capacitor to limit excursion and an acoustic xo created by the horn at 400 Hz. There is less in the signal path and no crossover in the critical frequencies, as well as no dome or ribbon tweeter at all. I won't be going back to traditional multi-way.
 

andromedaaudio

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Wilson for example has probably tried to give the upper midrange more solidity , impact by adding a 4 inch which can may be play up until 3.5 kHz.
Finding a unit that can do everything without Breaking up early ain't easy.
By the way what gives a speaker a wideband feeling is the 20 - 100 Hz range , that effects / supports the whole freq range dramatically , so also very important
 

Cellcbern

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I had Merlin VSM-mme's for a decade, and liked them enough to upgrade the BAM and RC networks to "Master" spec. They worked very well in my 16' x 10' x 8' listening room driven by my modified Pathos TT RR and Unison S6 integrated amps. About a year ago my fiancee made the observation that while I had close to a thousand CD's and SACD's, I seemed to listen to a select 50 or so over and over again. I hadn't thought about it before her comments, but had to admit that she was right. What was happening was that I was listening most of the time to the "handful" of very best recorded discs (mostly SACD's) that sounded great via the "ruthlessly revealing" Merlin speakers. That realization drove me to search for speakers that would allow me to enjoy much more of my music collection, while giving up nothing to the Merlins with really good recordings. I happened to see a show report on Bache speakers which led me to research them. After reading several reviews I was intrigued by the augmented widebander design, and had several discussions by phone with the designer Greg Belmann. Since he offered the flexibility to customize the crossover (I wanted the high end Audyn True Copper Max capacitors that he uses in his $15K speaker) and substitute 3/4" bamboo for mdf for the cabinet I took a chance and ordered a pair without having heard them. I got a chance to listen to them at his shop before taking delivery and was blown way. I've been listening to them for a couple of weeks now and I can say without hesitation that the Bache Metro 001’s (at least with the upgraded capacitors and cabinet) are superior to the Merlin VSM's. The Metro 001’s have more accurate and natural timbre and tonality, and are the Merlins' equal in imaging and soundstaging. The 001’s provide more bass depth and heft, the highs are sweeter, and overall they are more forgiving and sound better with a broader range of recordings than the Merlins. The VSM’s were likely a touch more resolving in the highs (but also a little bright), but nothing is missing when I listen to the Bache speakers, and I listen longer without fatigue and enjoy my listening more with the Metro 001’s.

The 4 inch bamboo wideband driver covers 400hz - 10000hz and a Heil air motion transformer is used as a supertweeter. Below 400hz an eight inch woofer provides deeper and more articulate bass than the six inch woofer in the Merlins.

See: https://hometheaterreview.com/bache-audio-metro-001-floorstanding-speaker-reviewed/


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spiritofmusic

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Cellcbern, your experience is not a million miles away from my own.
Welcome to the “Augmented Widebander Club”.
Has a kind of snappy ring to it, dontcha think?
 

andromedaaudio

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Regarding a 4 inch bamboo diagphram play ing up to 10 kHz without serious break up, i can only say show me the numbers.
And i dont mean a manufacturers stament by that
 

DaveC

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Regarding a 4 inch bamboo diagphram play ing up to 10 kHz without serious break up, i can only say show me the numbers.
And i dont mean a manufacturers stament by that

My wideband driver is 4" with a light paper cone (mms = 2g) and small diameter/light voice coil. It plays clean up to 15 kHz without a whizzer. I have measured it, and these are the facts!

Achieving 10 kHz is not difficult even for a 6" driver without a whizzer, with a whizzer you can hit 20 kHz no problem.
 
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bache

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The short history to design my speakers based on wide( full range )
First step-------------One driver no crossover
Second step- Bache audio-001 remove whizzer core ( i realize after measurement and listening is impossible to made flat response just to add supertweeter and leave whizzer is on) and add active Sub, crossing wideband with 100 HZ crosspoint
Third step-- I realize that wideband get poor ability to work midbass region 100-500 HZ ( baffle step) , Some Disigner to avoid this made very wide baffle (voxativ) I dont understand the ZU lover folks. The sound ( especially male vocal, lowest piano and
punch sound thinner than real , http://bacheaudio.com/bache-audio-002ab-loudspeakers-v2-stereotimes-com
We made Bache audio-002 to add separate midbass driver with active build in amps . But for all another speakers based on wideband with no built in amps, we have to add woofer with crosspoint 500-700 HZ ( Metro-001, Tribeca-001 etc)

Conclusion-- Wideband driver get good ability just to work like midrange with extended freguancy response, and get choice to implement not regular dome tweeter , but supertweeter.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Bache, no problems here with my Zus on male vocal, piano etc.
Absolutely no thinness at all, indeed tonal density all the way with the full range drivers down to 37Hz in room.
It’s safe to say there’s enough room in the world for more than one approach to augmented widebander speakers.
 

bache

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andromedaaudio@ Whizzer-is a small round cone attached to main cone. it start to add sound pressure about from 3000-5000Hz , to make more output, is widely used in Pro audio , like Cinema etc, but in came to high end ( for me wrong way) , How we can compare this piece
of paper with high guality tweeters ??. Is impossiable to integrate the whizzer cone with tweeter( my opinion )
Spiritomusic@ i know a lot audio folks is considered the Zu is best and dont have a big issue. i suggest you make one experiment . Get any equalizer or use computer , and while playing the track just put it 300-400 hz up to 3-5 db, and listen difference .
 

spiritofmusic

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Bache, a little word of advice, don’t put down Zu so much. Interest in Zu partially fuels the interest in “augmented widebanders”.
So interest in Zu can help interest in Bache.
Maybe you can tell me when you did the same thing you have suggested I do.
I confidently predict you haven’t, because to do so would mean you purchased some Zus yourself, and I don’t believe you have.
So please, be proud of your speakers, just don’t put down Zu.
Zu have shortcomings, just not in the area you mentioned.
Other than that, good luck with your venture, if you can sell a fraction of the number Zu have sold, you can be very proud.
 

bache

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Thinner sound in wideband drivers is not in my mind only, is not Zu problem, Please google baffle step issue and you realize what i am talking about. to reduce this
problem the speakers designers using baffle step crossover, or add woofer or midwoofer working from 500-700 Hz and down like me. i made this experiment 2 years
ago and push me add midbass driver in Bache audio-002 from 001. i was exited, so how sound was improve . there are a lot information for example
https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~apm3/diyaudio/Diffraction.html
 

andromedaaudio

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All those so called advantages and aiming for a driver who can do it all , nobody mentions the negatives imo.
With a 4 inch driver Starting from 400 or 500 Hz there are also disadvantages , i prefer to use a bigger driver to reproduce those low mid. Freq because IT. Gives more body /membrane surface to the sound .
See there is a big diffence if 1 of my 11 inch woofers is producing 400 Hz OR a Tiny 4 inch mid.
That can surely produce a thin sound
This is actually an area where i wanna experiment further with in a future model .
If there ever Will be , either using a 5 OR 4 inch driver and cross higher, OR using a large ribbon tw that can be crossed at 1200 Hz or so , which is lower then i use now
 
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