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Thread: Power Conditioning Advice

  1. #51
    Addicted to Best! Pb Blimp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom View Post
    A transformer is not a capacitor. It can help keep voltage up during high use a little when you go from 240v to 120v. As the Torus site says they are able to maintain +/- 5v. There are some minor benefits to a slightlier friendly impedance, but they are small. The big benefit is the noise isolation, which is why they call them isolation transformers, not "power reserves". There is no such "reserve". And a lot of problems that can affect delivery of power may shift, some improving others getting worse (240-120 better than 120-120).

    That is my nicer way of saying what I want to make clear, your statements are not true. And subjectively I have found transformer based systems to suffer from either slightly duller or harsher edges (as opposed to sounding "right").
    So a 10 amp transformer is going to deliver the same instantaneous current to a system as a 100 amp transformer? Well that's interesting.

    The use of a significantly over-sized transformer in relation to the size of the system's rated power requirements provides instant current when it's needed (like a capacitor would in a circuit). Of course a transformer is not a capacitor. My statement was meant to be what people call an analogy. (An oversized transformer has excess available power. It's really not that complicated.) Have you ever even used a properly sized transformer using the design standards recommended by a company like Torus to accomplish higher instantaneous current? Your comments read like someone accustomed to transformers used in a component's design not in power systems which weighs 220 lbs with virtually nil output impedance where units can be hundred-of-amps per microsecond.

    After you chat with the guys at Torus look at what Caelin Gabriel says about the significance of instantaneous current and the measurement units for amps per time involved. Oh and by the way, thanks for telling me I am a lier "the nicer way." You are quite the guy.
    Paul

    Power - Torus 75 amp WMT. Furutech NCF Lines, Flux-50s, Outlets, PC's. Star ground.
    Cables - Nordost Valhalla 2 and Odin (phono).
    Analog Source- ARC Ref 10 Phono. Acoustic Sig Ascona MKII, TA-9000 arm, Lyra Atlas.
    Digital Source- MSB Reference DAC, Femto 33.
    Amplification - Soulution 721 Pre and 501 Monos.
    Speakers - Raidho D3.1
    Room Acoustics - Acoustic Frontiers Design, RPG Plates, Absorption and Diffraction, and Custom Helmholtz Traps.
    Stands - Solid Walnut by Timber Nation.

  2. #52
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] Folsom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pb Blimp View Post
    So a 10 amp transformer is going to deliver the same instantaneous current to a system as a 100 amp transformer? Well that's interesting.

    The use of a significantly over-sized transformer in relation to the size of the system's rated power requirements provides instant current when it's needed (like a capacitor would in a circuit). Of course a transformer is not a capacitor. My statement was meant to be what people call an analogy. (An oversized transformer has excess available power. It's really not that complicated.) Have you ever even used a properly sized transformer using the design standards recommended by a company like Torus to accomplish higher instantaneous current? Your comments read like someone accustomed to transformers used in a component's design not in power systems which weighs 220 lbs with virtually nil output impedance where units can be hundred-of-amps per microsecond.

    After you chat with the guys at Torus look at what Caelin Gabriel says about the significance of instantaneous current and the measurement units for amps per time involved. Oh and by the way, thanks for telling me I am a lier "the nicer way." You are quite the guy.
    I never said anything about using an undersized transformer.

    Maybe you missed it, I specifically stated what I thought about transformer based systems - which includes wall, rackmount, and footers. My comments are specific to the AC system, not components.

    Why would I chat with the guys at Torus, if you're saying I'm too poor or something? I'm not positive about what your "accustomed" comment means. And while I think Caelin Gabriel is a really nice guy that I appreciate, I cannot say I would consider him a source for AC systems information.

    Back to transformers for a second. The reason the transformers are sized large isn't for the speed of current. The problem is that as the load increases on the secondary side (current needed) then the transformer starts to sag (voltage). Sag is a problem of winding resistance and/or heat. The winding resistance multiplied by the current, is the amount of sag; and heat can increase resistance. If sag is occurring beyond the threshold of what equipment needs, it'll be very audible (especially at heightened passages). Also if the transformer is producing heat then it'll shorten the lifespan & increase resistance. So clearly having a big transformer is a better way to keep heat down with a larger area, and resistance down with larger wire.

    However if you're worried about the propagation speed of electricity, transformers are not ideal. The insulation on conductors is what slows down propagation (probably why we like teflon or cotton in general for interconnects). Transformers have A LOT of insulation around all the wire in them. I wouldn't worry about it, just saying it isn't ideal for "instant".

    A real problem is what the complex impedance looks like. Current speed isn't the issue, it's what the current response looks like because of problems within the AC ecosystem. That's a complex subject, but as I've been saying transformers are good and bad in that respect, mostly neutral is a decent verdict. Larger ones sometimes can help subvert some issues.

    Lastly, I don't think you're a liar, Paul. A liar is someone intentionally telling something they know not to be true. As far as you know what you're saying you believe to be true, but it hasn't been so I'd like to help fill in some corrections because incorrect information is not good for people wandering around with dollars in their hand. And I don't like to come off with "you're wrong" and then that's it - which is popular on the net. That's all I meant about trying to be nice.
    Industry Affiliation: Folsom

  3. #53
    Addicted to Best! Pb Blimp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pb Blimp View Post
    If you consider a wall mount remember the benefits go well beyond cleaning up the power. Your whole system has a new power supply with massive excess current reserves to instantly recharge each units power supply and capacitance with instant current to improve leading edge transients, dynamics etc. Depending on the complexity of what you listen to, the volume you listen to and your speaker/amp impedance match this can be a very big deal. People will watch the amp meter on their amps and claim the amp never draws more than say 20% of the rated power so how can a large transformer help? This is a very wrong interpretation. The instant current draw-downs that impact dynamics happen far faster than the resolution of these meters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom View Post
    A transformer is not a capacitor. It can help keep voltage up during high use a little when you go from 240v to 120v. As the Torus site says they are able to maintain +/- 5v. There are some minor benefits to a slightlier friendly impedance, but they are small. The big benefit is the noise isolation, which is why they call them isolation transformers, not "power reserves". There is no such "reserve". And a lot of problems that can affect delivery of power may shift, some improving others getting worse (240-120 better than 120-120).

    That is my nicer way of saying what I want to make clear, your statements are not true. And subjectively I have found transformer based systems to suffer from either slightly duller or harsher edges (as opposed to sounding "right").
    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom View Post
    I never said anything about using an undersized transformer.

    Maybe you missed it, I specifically stated what I thought about transformer based systems - which includes wall, rackmount, and footers. My comments are specific to the AC system, not components.

    Why would I chat with the guys at Torus, if you're saying I'm too poor or something? I'm not positive about what your "accustomed" comment means. And while I think Caelin Gabriel is a really nice guy that I appreciate, I cannot say I would consider him a source for AC systems information.

    Back to transformers for a second. The reason the transformers are sized large isn't for the speed of current. The problem is that as the load increases on the secondary side (current needed) then the transformer starts to sag (voltage). Sag is a problem of winding resistance and/or heat. The winding resistance multiplied by the current, is the amount of sag; and heat can increase resistance. If sag is occurring beyond the threshold of what equipment needs, it'll be very audible (especially at heightened passages). Also if the transformer is producing heat then it'll shorten the lifespan & increase resistance. So clearly having a big transformer is a better way to keep heat down with a larger area, and resistance down with larger wire.

    However if you're worried about the propagation speed of electricity, transformers are not ideal. The insulation on conductors is what slows down propagation (probably why we like teflon or cotton in general for interconnects). Transformers have A LOT of insulation around all the wire in them. I wouldn't worry about it, just saying it isn't ideal for "instant".

    A real problem is what the complex impedance looks like. Current speed isn't the issue, it's what the current response looks like because of problems within the AC ecosystem. That's a complex subject, but as I've been saying transformers are good and bad in that respect, mostly neutral is a decent verdict. Larger ones sometimes can help subvert some issues.

    Lastly, I don't think you're a liar, Paul. A liar is someone intentionally telling something they know not to be true. As far as you know what you're saying you believe to be true, but it hasn't been so I'd like to help fill in some corrections because incorrect information is not good for people wandering around with dollars in their hand. And I don't like to come off with "you're wrong" and then that's it - which is popular on the net. That's all I meant about trying to be nice.
    So let me get this straight. I make the point that an oversized transformer will improve transients, dynamics etc by making sure components have instantaneous current as needed during high volume, complex passages so the system's components power supplies are not starved and capacitors are charged. You in turn call me a liar (untruthful....whatever). You then spend multiple posts pointing out the positive effects of an oversized transformer when current demands are high but you continue to double down that I am not truthful.

    Folsom, I am going to continue to restrain from saying to you the things I think about your knowledge and character. What I would like to request is that you stop engaging with me on this Forum.
    Paul

    Power - Torus 75 amp WMT. Furutech NCF Lines, Flux-50s, Outlets, PC's. Star ground.
    Cables - Nordost Valhalla 2 and Odin (phono).
    Analog Source- ARC Ref 10 Phono. Acoustic Sig Ascona MKII, TA-9000 arm, Lyra Atlas.
    Digital Source- MSB Reference DAC, Femto 33.
    Amplification - Soulution 721 Pre and 501 Monos.
    Speakers - Raidho D3.1
    Room Acoustics - Acoustic Frontiers Design, RPG Plates, Absorption and Diffraction, and Custom Helmholtz Traps.
    Stands - Solid Walnut by Timber Nation.

  4. #54
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] Folsom's Avatar
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    You're welcome to press the ignore button on me, Paul. But I shall otherwise continue to post as I have been. Perhaps if you don't ignore me you'll begin to change your opinion because I certainly am not known for "character" problems.

    Large transformers help maintain already available current. The Torus is somewhat unique in that it actually helps regulate voltage. Neither of these things have anything to do with "instant" or creating more "reserves". You don't buy a transformer to increase current or deliver anything "faster". That is just not how they work. I'm sorry if my explanations were not well enough into layman's terms to make it clear.

    I simply feel it is bad, and incorrect to try and persuade people into believing transformers do something that they do not. They call them isolation transformers, or balanced transformers for a reason - as opposed to electromagnetic current enhancer or something. Anyways, they have their virtues, but they are not as you portray them with gaining current capability or "speed". Again I don't think you're lying or being "untruthful", but merely that you've been similarly led astray on what transformers do.

    Let me illustrate an interesting point about current. You could pass 100A through a 34ga wire, about the size of a thick hair or so. Technically the electrons would move faster within the wire. The reason no one is doing this is because the heat will fry the wire (fast movement=heat). If you could keep the wire cool, it would be fine. The current is just as instantaneous as a larger wire using the same dialectic. The voltage would be much less through the 34ga wire if it were not cooled enough. And we're back again to maintaining voltage concerns, not current.
    Industry Affiliation: Folsom

  5. #55
    I spoke to tech / sales support at Torus Power. The gentleman was very informative and helped me start to figure out which unit was right for me. He claimed that there isn’t any difference between the rack mount and wall mount units. They both do the same job.

    Now I have to further understand what exactly the unit does and if it is right for me. I am leaning towards the wall mount unit so it supplies power to my entire room. Right now I have have 2 dedicated 20 amp lines for all the equipment. So, I would only need the 45 BAL or 60 BAL. Each would give me a little expansion room.
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS with Durand Telos composite arm; SME 3012R arm, Lyra Etna SL; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC> Lampizator Big 7 DAC, Oppo BDP-105;

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom View Post
    Let me illustrate an interesting point about current. You could pass 100A through a 34ga wire, about the size of a thick hair or so. Technically the electrons would move faster within the wire. The reason no one is doing this is because the heat will fry the wire (fast movement=heat). If you could keep the wire cool, it would be fine. The current is just as instantaneous as a larger wire using the same dialectic. The voltage would be much less through the 34ga wire if it were not cooled enough. And we're back again to maintaining voltage concerns, not current.
    You should check out 'electromigration' - here's a link you might find useful : https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1275855

    A 34awg wire has about 0.02mm^2 cross-section so by my calculations that's a current density of half a mega-amp per cm^2. Its in the region where electromigration effects can't normally be neglected according to the article I linked.

  7. #57
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! rockitman's Avatar
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    I'm loving my Torus RM 15 Plus isolation transformers (1 for each mono). My Pass amps sound better with them and have more instant current than plugging them straight into the wall. The amps really came alive. I am using PS AUDIO P5 regenerators for source. I would like to try a torus on the source too at some point to compare with the PS Audio.
    Christian

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  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by rockitman View Post
    I'm loving my Torus RM 15 Plus isolation transformers (1 for each mono). My Pass amps sound better with them and have more instant current than plugging them straight into the wall. The amps really came alive. I am using PS AUDIO P5 regenerators for source. I would like to try a torus on the source too at some point to compare with the PS Audio.
    Right now I am leaning towards getting a Torus wall mount unit to supply power to the entire room. I think I will get the WM 60 Bal AVR.
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS with Durand Telos composite arm; SME 3012R arm, Lyra Etna SL; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC> Lampizator Big 7 DAC, Oppo BDP-105;

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dminches View Post
    Right now I am leaning towards getting a Torus wall mount unit to supply power to the entire room. I think I will get the WM 60 Bal AVR.
    You are going to be very happy.
    Paul

    Power - Torus 75 amp WMT. Furutech NCF Lines, Flux-50s, Outlets, PC's. Star ground.
    Cables - Nordost Valhalla 2 and Odin (phono).
    Analog Source- ARC Ref 10 Phono. Acoustic Sig Ascona MKII, TA-9000 arm, Lyra Atlas.
    Digital Source- MSB Reference DAC, Femto 33.
    Amplification - Soulution 721 Pre and 501 Monos.
    Speakers - Raidho D3.1
    Room Acoustics - Acoustic Frontiers Design, RPG Plates, Absorption and Diffraction, and Custom Helmholtz Traps.
    Stands - Solid Walnut by Timber Nation.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Pb Blimp View Post
    You are going to be very happy.
    I hope I am. Thanks for your input on this.
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS with Durand Telos composite arm; SME 3012R arm, Lyra Etna SL; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC> Lampizator Big 7 DAC, Oppo BDP-105;

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