Those rare NOS Mullards

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
G’day maties!

From down unda, where the grass is green and the soil is red… and of course Melbourne- the best city in the world!

Been a while since my last post, cannot even remember when, feels like a year or two.

This is a dedication to mostly Conrad Johnson specialists, and to those who have used or acquired NOS tubes along the way.

Since departing with my beloved CAV45 (the most wonderful well-balanced tube integrated amp I’ve ever had the pleasure of owning) and venturing back into the pre-power config, now using the Classic 60SE once again, I was on the look out for a preamp that can match the sonic qualities of my previous ACT2.

Looked far and wide, over the hills and through the woods, and after trying quite a few superb preamps, I eventually settled for a beautiful PV15. This was the last “PV” series made by CJ just before their launch of the “ET series”, and the reason for choosing this particular preamp to match superbly well with the Classic 60SE is of many reasons:

1. This PV15 still has that golden glow of yesteryear that CJ was known for-musicality at its best. Call it coloured, caramel affect, who cares, the musical combination with the Classic 60 is marvellous!

2. Fitted with a pair of GE M8080’s which were well over used, required changing. So temporarily I fitted another pair of GE’s whiles my special order for the original Mullard M8080 was being processed by CJ (took a while but was worth the wait).

3. Final reason: simple circuitry, minimum parts (line stage only, no phonostage), easy to handle remote, and does have balance control- for those quick sound checks and finer adjustments… does make it handy.

Based on the above 3 points, most of the newer CJ pre’s don’t have much of that golden glow, neither do their latest power amps. However, after careful listening and trying numerous combinations, I figured if you were to try out an older pre with the power and finesse of their newer power amps, this combination just might provide a wonderful balanced sound of musical bliss, and that's all she wrote!

I must say, the ET5 was a superb combination as well as the ET7 would provide that very high quality sound. However, for me at this moment in my life, I have come to a point where this so called “high-end” audio industry must be justified by price vs performance factor. This is basically from the many experiences I have had through the decades of owning top end gear and eventuating into simpler forms of systems that not only give far more musical satisfaction but also help you save a whole lot more for finer things in life, such as family, building a home, and upgrading your cartridge.

Referring to point 2: this was the most amazing musical experience I have had to date!
CJ shipped across some very rare NOS Mullards, paid a pretty penny for this pair. It was like unwrapping something from the Raiders of the Lost Ark… The tubes came in an old white box, where each tube was covered in some very old type of paper that virtually crumpled whiles unwrapping. Checked the dates, looked like somewhere between 1976-78, the lettering was so faded, I think it was probably 1980. Anyway, I placed these in and thought what’s all the fuss about NOS… wow! Now that’s what I call “musical justification!”

Points as follows:
1. The holographic imaging is deeper and wider, has a superb sense of space along with the right sense of scale.

2. The transient response is smoother and has greater control coming from the power amp. There is no sense of “forced transients” or “overblown” impact, rather a sense of more natural tones, and when called for in the music, does deliver the impact only when needed. This is what I refer to a well-balanced sound, which allows you to relax and listen and most of all enjoy your music, rather than always be on edge…

3. The greatest factor, which leads to the most significant experience, is the noise floor. It’s extremely quiet, far quieter than the ET5 or the ACT2. I also tried the ET3SE, although a wonderful design in its own right, does not have balance control, only found on the ET5, ET7 & upwards. Therefore, describing the sonic attributes as above, considering the percentage of performance, this has gone up by around 60-70%, actually closer to 80% I would say.

In the past, what I have noticed from changing preamps usually amounts to a small factor of performance, somewhere between 10-20% in sonics but certainly not these Mullards! The whole presentation is truly remarkable, and delivered through Martin Logan stats, that level of transparency is highly revealing!

Do I miss my ACT2? Yes, sometimes, then perhaps an ET5 or ET7 would be the answer… unfortunately these preamps in Aussie land are priced in the upper region, which I will not spend on, although very accessible. If I was to out-class this performance by quite a margin and be able to justify the performance factor in that upper 70-80% region, that would have to be the GAT /GATS2.

Therefore, the point I’m trying to make is for those who have quality preamps, and are trying to venture towards upgrades or that ultimate one, don’t stress! You never know what you’ve already got, until you provide it with the best. Some careful listening and critical placement, and choosing the right tubes, may actually get you to a level of performance that you thought was only accessible if you had the extra funds, definitely not so!

Another PV series from CJ that I have enjoyed in the distant past was the PV12. It had all of that glorious golden glow, and partner this beauty with one of their newer designed power amps, will definitely provide that finer balance. Call me old fashion or whatever… but when you here this combination, you will recognize it straight away, and there is something very nostalgic about this sound. Whether it is “accurate” or not, I wouldn’t know but one thing for sure is “it just sounds right” indeed!

Cheers and all the best to the remaining PV series, Vintage at its best!
RJ
 
  • Like
Reactions: MPS

bgiliberti

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2012
46
3
913
I bought 4 NOS M8080 Mullards from CJ, same as yours in white box with paper. I paid about US$50 per/tube. Unfortunately, 3 of the 4 developed a rustling sound within a month. CJ refunded my money, no problem. I then bought 10 from a UK company on eBay for US11 each. They were identical to the ones I bought from CJ, same white box, same paper. Out of the 10, two had noise issues, and the rest are fine. I just think that even if CJ tests them, and burns them in, some are going to get noisy real fast. Given the $50 price, it makes sense to buy via eBay.
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
G'day bg..
OK understand your issue and the minor noise problem with CJ's tubes. I agree, some of their tubes do have noise issues, and so does ARC, VTL & Manley, which I've all owned in either stereo amps or monoblocks.

Your suggestion to buy from eBay or cheaper places, points noted.

However, let me ask, if you had a problem with tubes from eBay would they refund?

CJ will because they are a highly reputed company that has been around for a while. And they did this for you.

I've been dealing with them since the early 90's and my dad has been dealing with them since the 70's. That's covering a good 40years in solid customer relationships. So far the only hiccup we ever had was caps failing in a PFR preamp and the transport unit failed in our DV2B CD player, mainly due to excessive humid conditions in tropical climes. They were replaced brand new even though one was out of warranty, brand new caps sent all the way from VA to Colombo via FedEx, only the shipping was paid for at our end.
That's what I call top of the line customer service.

If eBay suits you, that's fine as long as you're happy. That's the main thing.
Cheers mate, have a good one.
RJ
 

bgiliberti

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2012
46
3
913
Glad you're enjoying your PV-15. I love my Classic One SE Preamp, which uses two Mullard 8080s. I had an ET-5 for a while, but found I preferred the Classic SE, just a bit more "golden" CJ sound than the ET5, which is a seriously fine amp and I would say "better" overall than my little Classic, but not quite the sound I wanted. I agree with everything you say about CJ being reputable in every way. I think my real point is that the with a high MU tube like the 8080, no matter how much testing and burn in CJ does, a fairly high amount are going to get noisy, and fail rather early on. So I prefer now to buy cheaply in bulk -- if even 2/3 of them turn out to be bad -- which they won't -- I still come out ahead in dollars and cents. I noticed that when CJ introduced the Classic 2, they switched to a single, lower mu tube (I think the 6922). I suspect part of the reason was that they were having the same problems with their M8080s. In a way, it's a shame, as I've found the 6922 to be a rather less dynamic tube in other applications. I think the old Mullard8080s are exactly as you describe -- just wonderful. In fact, CJ offered to rewire my Classic One to a Classic 2, but I declined, so I could keep using those wonderful 8080s. I will say, my current pair now has over 1,500 hours, and is still quiet as a church mouse! I'm a happy CJ camper.
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Bg mate, I had no idea that you tried out an ET5!
I must say, if you really preferred the overall sound of the Classic pre, that is a very special type of musicality that is heard and recognized by pristine ears... Call it coloured, caramel, whatever... That form of musicality from those M8080's in a CJ preamp for me is all I would ever require from a fine preamplifier.
Hence, the reason why, just like yourself, didn't go for the ET5. I'm not saying that the ET5 is bad or anything, if at all it's a glorious preamp. It's just that golden glow of CJ's DNA is lacking in it, and so is the ET3 as well, regardless of SE version or not.

Again this is only a personal preference, for those who own ET5's & ET3's, they are top performers and you probably know that by now.

In all my audio journey with numerous brands, going back towards CJ after having ARC, VTL & Manley, plus other types of SS amplification, I must say that this combination of the PV15 along with the LP125m's by far has been the best amp config I have ever had to date!
Of course the others have excelled in certain area such as dynamics, lower tighter bass and forceful mids. Having said that, the musicality factor with this current combination out-classes all my previous systems by a FAR margin, even though some of them were up-to three times more in price!

So far in terms of the latest offering by CJ that really captured my attention, a sort of "stop the train" moment, was when I first heard the ET7. It seems like there is something extra special going on with this particular pre, and not only does it match extremely well with similar top line CJ power amps but brings out pure music in the most magical way I have experienced from a pre at this price point.

I still regret trading off my Classic SE pre for an ACT2, it had all that is ever required except balance control. After I got used to the ACT2, then an ET3se and now the PV15, I do find the balance control does come in handy when testing out channel balance & output status for each channel, that's about all I would use this control for.

I am very passionate towards simpler systems, as I feel they bring out more of the music, hence the main reason why I have been trading off most of my higher gear...

Perhaps the ET7 is out-classed by the GATS2, but the question that always sits in my mind is by what margin and for how long?
At the end of the day, obviously according to your finances and overall wealth, I have learned (the very hard way...) that by careful listening and selection of your type of sound you want to achieve, you can put together a system of very high value that doesn't necessarily have to cost a fortune.

Enjoy that Classic pre Bg mate, it is far more valuable than what it looks like!
Cheers and many hours of musical bliss to your listening sessions.
A very loud woof! RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
G'day maties, down unda calling...

Well looks like just about the same time last year, I replaced the signal tubes on the monoblocks. Just as I finished posting on CJO about two amplifiers, one was a PV14L and the other, the mighty Premier 8 monoblocks, CJ's top of the line during that golden era.

This time, it was the left channel, a raspy noise similar to sandpaper rubbing. Straight away I knew it was one of those small fellas but which one... So the investigation commenced, tubes were swapped and changed over. Didn't take too long to find the culprit! It was one of the Mullards- M8080 tubes. Luckily I had a second set of NOS Mullards, so I replaced both. In the interim of the search & destroy mission, I also swapped out the GGL's E88CC's with EH6922's. So there didn't seem to be any issues with the Gold Lions on this occasion, though I initially thought they were the culprits.

Upon installation and powering back on, something fundamentally changed. It seems that the midrange on the EH tubes are phenomenally correct. That is, very smooth, nicely open and laid out, and the resolution is perfect! Then perhaps those SE upgrades done on the monoblocks are shifting up another level, I don't know. Whatever it is something has improved by a further 5%.

Then again, perhaps it's those NOS Mullards settling in... not sure. However, there is a definite area where the GGL''s are superior, and that is in the LF. The bass is much more solid, with a tight grip and that lively punch to it. I would say both the EH and Genalex are fantastic tubes but for now I'm just enjoying the EH just the way they are.

Tomorrow night I'll swap back to the Genalex just to be sure that I've properly used its remaining hours for what it's worth. Since I paid a fair price for the pair, might as well use them to the max without early retirement.

Cheers to both EH & Genalex, they do deliver some fine tunes!
Woofty woof'n!!! RJ
 

Attachments

  • 20210814_044151.jpg
    20210814_044151.jpg
    659.4 KB · Views: 6
  • Like
Reactions: Argonaut

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Yes, without a doubt.
Infact in time to come, as a retirement plan downsizing... will most probably end up with a tube integrated driving high efficiency speakers/benign loads, that sort of thing. The less tubes the better for long term maintenance, plus simpler circuits and very high quality parts. That's what CJ is all about.

Not retiring just yet... so enjoying those fine tunes for now. Cheers, RJ
 
  • Like
Reactions: Addicted to hifi

Addicted to hifi

VIP/Donor
Sep 8, 2020
4,610
2,039
265
52
Australia
Yes, without a doubt.
Infact in time to come, as a retirement plan downsizing... will most probably end up with a tube integrated driving high efficiency speakers/benign loads, that sort of thing. The less tubes the better for long term maintenance, plus simpler circuits and very high quality parts. That's what CJ is all about.

Not retiring just yet... so enjoying those fine tunes for now. Cheers, RJ
Good idea.
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,126
651
1,200
Alto, NM
Would you please stop. WBF is not your facebook page.
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
G'day Maties!
I had the most interesting discussion of the century so far... apart from the previous discussions I've had with LJ and Ed back in the day. It looks like I should have known better and just followed their advice, rather we as audiophiles get highly carried away by all the hype and marketing, and think we know it all...

When it comes to tube rolling, there's really no point, unless there are significant differences and those differences are favourable! Power output tubes are quite different, as long as the amplifiers are designed to handle those particular output tubes, then all is well.

So, I happened to come across a chap and his outfit called The Valve Store based right here in Melbourne! Funny thing is, I've never heard of the place nor even knew they existed since a few decades. This guy knows his stuff inside out, no BS... and the 40mins conversation I had whiles driving to work, was the most informative thing since I last spoke to Lew and Ed about 20yrs ago.

Sometimes I felt pretty ignorant after he explained a few things that makes absolute sense, plus it's even clearly stated in every CJ manual using tube amplifiers *we know of no other tubes that will enhance the performance of your CJ amplifier* something along those lines...

These were the highlights of our discussion:
1. The GGL's, EH6922, EHX gold pin, standard pin whatever, are all made at the same factory in Saratov Russia. They are ALL identical, just take a look at the pins and structure, basically the same dam thing!

2. There's absolutely no difference between any of these driver/phase inverter tubes. Including input stage tubes.

3. The white flashes are NOT normal. They should never flash or flicker, and they should burn steady, i.e. with a steady amber glow.

4. The primary reasons for failure is date of production. So those made in the Flinstones era, perhaps measured good whiles packing... by the time those NOS tubes reach your amplifier they're pretty much buggered. Tubes do not like to travel, especially air freight. Sea or road is the best, in which case we would have to wait for months for stock but that's just the way they are. I very clearly remember Eve Anne Manley saying the very same thing when I ordered a full replacement set of tubes for my Manley/VTL monoblocks, that included 16 output tubes per side. She sent 8 spares saying that some of them will fall "sick" by the time they reach Colombo! And yes, 6 of them went belly up! That was back in 98/99.

5. Later the production the better! So if you can get hold of any pair (good quality brands) made between 2018 - 2020 that's the safest bet. Just pull out the bad tube and replace it, if it works that's all that matters!

6. Obviously the Phillips and other makes of small signal tubes are quite different to the Russian made ones coming out of Saratov. Most of these tubes, although compatible in your amplifiers may not necessarily mean they will behave well. Hence, the failures. Now it seems that the GGL's aren't meant for the particular monoblocks I'm using, rather it suits the EH6922's better (which were the original tubes that came installed). However, on both brands I've had failures, with those white flashes, yes. It seems like it was mostly due to the date of production and how far back production dates.

7. The marketing hype around the NOS world of tubes has taken the audiophile by storm! So the older and rarer, one would think they're great! Again, not the case. Sincere advice, just stick with current production and you're good to go.

Output power tubes are the ones that will contribute to the most significant changes. Then again, I swear I hear differences between GGL's and EH. EH seems to have a more profound midrange, whereas the GGL's have a superior bass. However, this maybe psychological and I think my mind has been tricked into thinking those driver tubes are phenomenally different but they're not. So what the heck am I hearing then? I don't know...

I was advised that matching small signal tubes is not as critical as matching output tubes. They may measure across well upon pre-packing but when they reach your amplifier, and start burning, those measurements go haywire. Pretty much back to square one.
However, Output tubes are better in terms of overall performance when matched, and it is recommended generally after the useful lifespan of output tubes, to do a FULL tube replacement, rather than replacing one by one.
This will ensure the optimum operating life of the amplifier and will allow those output tubes to gradually wear out as their hours run-in. Again, clearly stated in CJ's owners manuals.

Ending on a very interesting note: if someone wants to invest in a tube amplifier and really wants top quality with the best possible sound and solid build, plus highly reliable design, CJ and ARC are the answer!
Ah! Now I know why CJ "just sounds right!"

Anyway, that is an obvious personal preference, there are many equally outstanding amplifiers and for the money spent, with careful selection to match your musical tastes, you can put together a superb combination that will deliver all that you're looking for. It's just a matter of finding the right gear.

Both ARC and CJ, have continually improved their performance based on simple circuits designed many decades ago. So there's really nothing new in them, rather more simple signal paths and higher quality parts that are available with the advancement of technology. So caps and resistors used in 1989 are quite different to those caps & resistors used now. This is what makes the most significant difference in changes to sound and their performance. Again reiterated by those designers and owners who I was in touch with many years ago.

Tube rolling is a hobby, if you feel that things change the sound and you like it then go for it! However, I wouldn't get too carried away with it. Just replace the existing tubes with the same type as close as possible or a direct match, power up and enjoy those fine tunes!

Should have listened to these guys in the first place. Would have saved me quite a lot of spend.
Thought I'd share these notes mostly for CJ & ARC owners. Perhaps other members can relate with similar experiences.

Cheers, RJ
Oh! And enjoy those fine tunes!
 
  • Like
Reactions: paolo

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
So, last night/this morning, finished the listening session way past 4am, closer to 5am. The last couple of hours (about 3hrs) I changed over to the Genalex Gold Lions. Again, was told that these are identical, same construction, same factory, same everything... checked the dates- 16/07 on both, so all is well.

Popped them in and oh! Very nice! Not quite sure whether this is psychological thing or not but there's something quite different in tonality. Not major differences, rather subtle and LF detail seems tighter with a solid thump to describe it. I guess the Electro Harmonix midrange is the winner of the two, although I found the Genalex to offer a smoother sense of balance from highs-mids-lows. Both brands are equally outstanding, and I'm enjoying going either way.

Might as well just use these tubes with the remaining hours on both, which should have ample time since both are fairly new. I did note though the EH tubes are newer production, so I'll probably use these later on. My testing was done using the same tracks on those three SACD's, Bill Charlap and Patricia Barber. So it was quite easy to distinguish those subtle differences.

Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Ah! Finally those Mullards arrived but this time not from my trusted CJ importer, rather all the way from the UK, Watford Valves. Absolutely fabulous!
Not sure if these are NOS or not but whatever they're doing is absolutely amazing! Every minute detail, every nuance and that wonderful palpable midrange that CJ is know for, is delivered from the first note. That's the hallmark of CJ, superb!

I had a close look at the other original Mullards that I replaced in these monoblocks, they look exactly identical. Perhaps NOS type... maybe. Can't quite make out the date of production, it's far too faint even under a mag lense. Obviously my x-ray vision is nothing like 22yrs ago...

Anyway, based on my initial post back in April 2018, those tubes were sourced from CJ and they were equally outstanding. These Mullards M8080's perform extremely well and even better. They seem to have more pick up energy, upbeat and more sparkle, absolutely marvellous!

I very highly recommend Watford Valves for those fine tubes, fully worth it and their charges seem quite reasonable. At least now I have found a good reliable supplier for these rare Mullards.

Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
"It just sounds right"
RJ
 
  • Like
Reactions: paolo

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing