My thoughts on cartridge/arm set up

microstrip

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Fransisco, Yip does not take a "typical value for this purpose". For SME arms with non slotted headshells, Yip requests that the user supply the cartridge mounting hole to stylus distance in mm. He adds this to the pivot to mounting hole distance of the arm, taking into account the offset angle of the headshell to calculate the actual effective length. This is then used to draw the arc on the protractor. That is why with SME arms, MINT protractors are specific to the arm and cartridge. I have ordered two MINT protractors for SME arms from Yip. They are incredibly accurate.

Good enough: it all depends on what you think is "good enough". I used the SME supplied protractor and it was fine. The challenge is standing over it precisely to align the arm with the outline. How does one know that his line of sight is square? It is an approximation at best, but it works just fine. Then I witnessed a friend use the MINT protractor. I ordered one for my SME V. The first thing I did was check to see how accurate my existing alignment was that was based on the SME protractor. Well, it was off by about 1mm at the outside of the MINT arc and 0.5mm at the inside. The sound was fine, but after I reset overhang with the MINT, it sounded slightly better. Yes "slightly better" is a subjective and relative term, but I preferred the sound with the more accurate protractor. The best thing about the MINT, which is completely absent from the SME, is zenith alignment at the null points. This is another parameter that matters with certain stylus shapes. Without being able to visually check how square the cantilever is at the null points, how does one know if zenith is correct? Of course it matters if the stylus is mounted squarely in the cantilever tip, but the SME protractor does not help here either. I am not aware of any protractor that can confirm with accuracy the mounting of the stylus. Simply aligning the edge of the headshell with the edge of the cartridge may be "good enough", but aligning the actual cantilever with tiny lines at the null points with a 10X loupe is more accurate.

None of this matters if the end user does not hear the difference or does not care about precision. Good enough is always good enough, until it is no longer.

Nice to know you get one MINT protractor for each cartridge. However your comparison just shows that SME and MINT use different alignments, not that one of them is better or more accurate than the other - as you know each alignment has its fans and detractors.

It is only my opinion but I always found these old alignment battles a waste of time. Do you experience changes is sound quality as your LP is being played and tracking error increases or decreases in most of the inner zone of the LP? In fact alignments mostly reflect sound quality at the zones outer and inner than the null points, and are simply compromises between what people weight more - average distortion or maximum distortion.

So in this case, what you call "good enough" is IMHO just another view of excellence.

IMHO much more important than zenith - that in my own current cartridges is negligible, although some well used old cartridges that I have owned have developed this problem - is the zenith of the angle of insertion of the stylus in the cantilever in most stylus shapes. Do you know of anyone checking for it?

Again IMHO the critical tool for cartridge alignment is the accuracy of our sight. And I feel it is possible to do a much more accurate work when the headshell or tonearm are reverse turned in my hands far from the turntable than fiddling in uncomfortable positions. As always YMMV.
 

tima

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... For SME arms with non slotted headshells, Yip requests that the user supply the cartridge mounting hole to stylus distance in mm. ...

I'm guessing that is from the center of the hole. How do you measure that distance? Or do you get it from the cartridge maker?
 

PeterA

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I'm guessing that is from the center of the hole. How do you measure that distance? Or do you get it from the cartridge maker?

Each cartridge sample is slightly different, so Yip recommends taking a direct measurement of one's own cartridge. Yip has instructions on his website as to how to measure this distance. Yes, it is from the center of the mounting hole to the stylus tip. One can also simply measure the hole in the cartridge rather than from the headshell hole with the cartridge mounted. One does it by eye, so I suppose it is imprecise. I use a digital caliper and tried three times with very slightly different results and took the average to within 0.1mm. This is about the width of the arc line inscribed on the protractor. One does the best he can. I happened to measure while the cartridge was resting in the groove with the recommended 2.0g VTF to account for cantilever flex, which occurs when using the protractor anyway. This flex increases the effective length slightly so it is more accurate, IMO.

If one has ever tried to stand over the SME paper protractor and tried to line up by sight the outline of the tonearm and headshell to the paper template below, one can see that it is less precise than the MINT and so results are less consistent. I have tried three times with the SME protractor and always gotten slightly different results relative to the MINT. Once is was extremely close, the two other times, it was off my 0.5 or 1mm, so it is a matter of consistency and repeatability. As Micro writes, the SME is "good enough", but I happen to think the MINT is slightly better. Would everyone think it matters? Probably not. These are just tools which people decide to use or not. There are many different ways to align cartridges.
 

PeterA

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Nice to know you get one MINT protractor for each cartridge. However your comparison just shows that SME and MINT use different alignments, not that one of them is better or more accurate than the other - as you know each alignment has its fans and detractors.

It is only my opinion but I always found these old alignment battles a waste of time. Do you experience changes is sound quality as your LP is being played and tracking error increases or decreases in most of the inner zone of the LP? In fact alignments mostly reflect sound quality at the zones outer and inner than the null points, and are simply compromises between what people weight more - average distortion or maximum distortion.

So in this case, what you call "good enough" is IMHO just another view of excellence.

IMHO much more important than zenith - that in my own current cartridges is negligible, although some well used old cartridges that I have owned have developed this problem - is the zenith of the angle of insertion of the stylus in the cantilever in most stylus shapes. Do you know of anyone checking for it?

Again IMHO the critical tool for cartridge alignment is the accuracy of our sight. And I feel it is possible to do a much more accurate work when the headshell or tonearm are reverse turned in my hands far from the turntable than fiddling in uncomfortable positions. As always YMMV.

I agree that sight is extremely important, and mine continues to worsen over time. If you do you cartridge set up with the headshell or tonearm in your hands far from the turntable, do you not check final results and final fine tuning by ear? How does that work? I agree it is very much easier to look at how straight the cantilever is and how squarely the cartridge is mounted in the cantilever under proper conditions and in a convenient position, away from the turntable. I do these checks before I mount the cartridge to the arm. Then I do all of the alignment and set up procedures on the platter and then listen and fine tune.

I think Acoustical Systems from Germany has that Smartracker protractor with multiple alignments for different preferences. Many choose a particular alignment based on what genre of music they prefer and how close the inner groove is to the spindle. I have not really explored that area. I would not describe alignment opinions or discussions as "battles", nor to I think they are a waste of time for those who think it matters.
 

microstrip

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I agree that sight is extremely important, and mine continues to worsen over time. If you do you cartridge set up with the headshell or tonearm in your hands far from the turntable, do you not check final results and final fine tuning by ear? How does that work? I agree it is very much easier to look at how straight the cantilever is and how squarely the cartridge is mounted in the cantilever under proper conditions and in a convenient position, away from the turntable. I do these checks before I mount the cartridge to the arm. Then I do all of the alignment and set up procedures on the platter and then listen and fine tune.

I think Acoustical Systems from Germany has that Smartracker protractor with multiple alignments for different preferences. Many choose a particular alignment based on what genre of music they prefer and how close the inner groove is to the spindle. I have not really explored that area. I would not describe alignment opinions or discussions as "battles", nor to I think they are a waste of time for those who think it matters.

The only adjustments I check by ear are VTF and VTA (tonearm height). If I can admit that the cartridge is centered along the head shell (or parallel to the side of the SME V), as I do, all I have to do concerning geometry is adjusting tonearm position with the two point protractor.

You should have understood my nomenclature if you had followed the alignment debates of the past - or some current ones from vinyl aficionados in other sites. I consider that the flamed debates on these alignment matters are a waste of time because they just show a preference that depends to much on system characteristics, such as stylus type, tonearm and playback system. There is no absolute "better", as most to say about their preferred. If possible, I stay with the alignment suggested by the tonearm manufacturer. And surely, I respect choices of other people, but feel free to ask questions and comment on them.
 

tima

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Each cartridge sample is slightly different, so Yip recommends taking a direct measurement of one's own cartridge. Yip has instructions on his website as to how to measure this distance. Yes, it is from the center of the mounting hole to the stylus tip. One can also simply measure the hole in the cartridge rather than from the headshell hole with the cartridge mounted. One does it by eye, so I suppose it is imprecise. I use a digital caliper and tried three times with very slightly different results and took the average to within 0.1mm. This is about the width of the arc line inscribed on the protractor. One does the best he can. I happened to measure while the cartridge was resting in the groove with the recommended 2.0g VTF to account for cantilever flex, which occurs when using the protractor anyway. This flex increases the effective length slightly so it is more accurate, IMO.

If one has ever tried to stand over the SME paper protractor and tried to line up by sight the outline of the tonearm and headshell to the paper template below, one can see that it is less precise than the MINT and so results are less consistent. I have tried three times with the SME protractor and always gotten slightly different results relative to the MINT. Once is was extremely close, the two other times, it was off my 0.5 or 1mm, so it is a matter of consistency and repeatability. As Micro writes, the SME is "good enough", but I happen to think the MINT is slightly better. Would everyone think it matters? Probably not. These are just tools which people decide to use or not. There are many different ways to align cartridges.

Thanks for your account of taking that measurement. It was the need to do that when ordering the Mint 'tractor that convinced me to use Wally Malewicz's instead. I never attempted the measurement thinking it near impossible to be fully confident in it. Obviously it works for you.

I have an SME Vd and used it for several years, but never thought the supplied paper protractor was good enough. Convenient, yes.

I agree about the importance of vision. I always take two days for an alignment, coming back the 2nd day to recheck my work - averaging out my eyesight as it were. That gives enough time for reality to put a check on my desire for it to perfect.
 

spiritofmusic

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Peter, with no little help from you highlighting the importance, I'm finally getting the relevance of VTA.

Luckily my Terminator air arm has a very user friendly adjustment I can use on the fly, and w my current better than ever optimised analog setup, I'm really starting to hear big differences btwn settings.

Personally I'm using snare drum impact and bass/drums tightness as my sonic compass.

Not sure what will aid me aurally as I start to tune in classical that obv doesn't have a rhythm section.
 
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PeterA

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Good for you, Marc. Have you been talking to Ron? He is also becoming increasingly interested in linear tracking arms. A willingness to learn and experiment can often lead to better understanding and improvements in sound and then enjoyment. Drums work as a listening test, but only for that LP and others that have the same thickness and cutting head angle.

You may not want to get into adjusting for individual LPs, but if you do, with time and experience, you will learn for what to listen. Let us know if you move in that direction over time.
 

spiritofmusic

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Peter, my voyage twds this point is a culmination of getting a lot of things right, and an analog setup that is very neutral and revealing now. VTA was always likely destination getting the foundation right first.

I remain a little unsure what to listen for on classical re VTA. I'm sure it'll be something like violin tone or piano timing.

But it's an exciting (I can hear my GF groaning that mms adjustments can be called exciting LOL) "final frontier" to be more aware of.

Maybe that should be "final FINAL frontier" since I've said I'm done many times in the past.
 

spiritofmusic

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Re linear arms, I'm keeping mine
Its discontinued now, and has been as fine an example as a "go to" component as I could envisage.

Ron really ought to try the Schroeder LT. Linear arms can feel so "right".
 

spiritofmusic

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Peter, it's also a vindication of my room, and attention to detail on the rest of my setup.

In my old space, things were so strident that any move in VTA that addressed any euphonic warmth or bloat was a no no.

Hence I never got any meaningful positives.

And my old setup just wasn't that good. The Stacore Adv has been key here, allowing full parameters of my rig to be met, and thus VTA is available as a variable.

And as with all things, now I can hear differences that work, I can REALLY hear them.
 

microstrip

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Re linear arms, I'm keeping mine
Its discontinued now, and has been as fine an example as a "go to" component as I could envisage.

Ron really ought to try the Schroeder LT. Linear arms can feel so "right".

But linear tonearms take out 90% of the fun (the SME portactor in SME tonearms only 50%) .

With LTs usually we just assemble the cartridge parallel to the linear wand and use a single point protractor for arm length - an extremely easy job. All that you have to fiddle is VTA and VTF. No funny alignments to debate, no verification next day, no justification for expensive jigs ...

But yes, you can play with air pressure - will it sound better with nitrogen? :)
 

Audiophile Bill

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Marc - I will show you in detail what to look out for on the classical side when you dial in VTA next time we meet.

If you aren’t that experienced listening to classical, vocals can be a very handy initial VTA setup metric - in very simple terms when the back end (of arm) is running too high, the vocals can tend to cause sibilants and as the rear starts to get lower, these sibilants will start to diminish to nothing. Riding too low at the rear can make the sound too slow and overly smoothed over.

I use a lot of instrument tone on violins and cellos as well as sound staging to know when I am optimised. Full orchestral layering is a helpful metric too as well as tympani speed. Anyway - I can go on and on so best just to demonstrate.
 
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Audiophile Bill

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But linear tonearms take out 90% of the fun (the SME portactor in SME tonearms only 50%) .

With LTs usually we just assemble the cartridge parallel to the linear wand and use a single point protractor for arm length - an extremely easy job. All that you have to fiddle is VTA and VTF. No funny alignments to debate, no verification next day, no justification for expensive jigs ...

But yes, you can play with air pressure - will it sound better with nitrogen? :)

Ha Francisco :)

I know you may laugh but I was setting up my Vyger last night in the new room and tuning arm pressure for about 3 hours lol.
 

spiritofmusic

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Bill, I've now got a pump w variable pressure to my Terminator arm.

Please don't tell me that VTA and arm pressure are interdependent.
 

PeterA

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But linear tonearms take out 90% of the fun (the SME portactor in SME tonearms only 50%) .

With LTs usually we just assemble the cartridge parallel to the linear wand and use a single point protractor for arm length - an extremely easy job. All that you have to fiddle is VTA and VTF. No funny alignments to debate, no verification next day, no justification for expensive jigs ...

But yes, you can play with air pressure - will it sound better with nitrogen? :)

Don't forget about assuring the arm support structure is parallel to the LP surface and that both are absolutely level. I think this might affect azimuth. I have no experience with air bearing linear tracking arms, so I don't know how to confirm this or adjust it, but I would think it would be crucially important.
 
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Audiophile Bill

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Don't forget about assuring the arm support structure is parallel to the LP surface and that both are absolutely level. I think this might affect azimuth. I have no experience with air bearing linear tracking arms, so I don't know how to confirm this or adjust it, but I would think it would be crucially important.[/QUOTE

Yes this a good point and one that I was adjusting on my table and the General’s yesterday. There are two ways to test and achieve this on the Vyger:
1. Put a spirit level on the top of the linear tracker VTA tower or arm tube.
2. Watch carefully the arm movement using a very light tracking force to see any drift - do not touch the vinyl!
3. Adjust using the arm grubs screws that can be adjusted on the arm base - they are 360 degrees around the arm so you literally achieve any angle needed.
 

Lagonda

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But linear tonearms take out 90% of the fun (the SME portactor in SME tonearms only 50%) .

With LTs usually we just assemble the cartridge parallel to the linear wand and use a single point protractor for arm length - an extremely easy job. All that you have to fiddle is VTA and VTF. No funny alignments to debate, no verification next day, no justification for expensive jigs ...

But yes, you can play with air pressure - will it sound better with nitrogen? :)
In my experience you can fiddle quite a bit with azimuth to. Very critical on
linear trackers.
 

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