Best music software?

sbo6 · Nov 7, 2018

dr k, there are many low power and passively cooled PC designed motherboards that accommodate low TDP processors which is the same as the Mac mini. The lower power does not eliminate the need for multiple voltage level rails and D to D converters on all computer MBs. And at the voltage levels MBs operate at, a few volts means nothing in terms of noise, it's the implementation that matters most.

Also, I know of no one who looks down on the Mini, it's because it's marginally customize-able compared to PC HW and SW that excludes its use for digital audiophiles.

As for being an industry insider, I meant relative to PC design, I work for Dell.

dr k · Nov 7, 2018

sbo6 said:
dr k, there are many low power and passively cooled PC designed motherboards that accommodate low TDP processors which is the same as the Mac mini. The lower power does not eliminate the need for multiple voltage level rails and D to D converters on all computer MBs. And at the voltage levels MBs operate at, a few volts means nothing in terms of noise, it's the implementation that matters most.

Also, I know of no one who looks down on the Mini, it's because it's marginally customize-able compared to PC HW and SW that excludes its use for digital audiophiles.

As for being an industry insider, I meant relative to PC design, I work for Dell.

I know many who look down on Mac Mini as music servers. It’s almost impossible to get most audiophiles to consider the Mac Mini as music servers. I appreciate your opinion on MB designs. Thanks for disclosing your insider status.

Legolas · Nov 8, 2018

sbo6 said:
I'm not sure where your head is at, you're saying you agree but the Mac mini can be set up to compete very cheaply? It can't. You can't modify the MB LO and rework it to avoid noisy on - board DC -> DC converters, doesn't matter if it's an Apple, HP or whomever, they use the same crap boards. Running on a 12V LPSU confirms this since motherboards (even Apple) have multiple rails requiring 12V, 5V, etc. so DC -> DC conversion is occurring = noise. On top of that, I believe the Mac Mini = active cooling with a fan. Want better sound? Go passive, the motor is an audio quality killer.

Also, no PCs have built - in monitors and any DIY Music server can be configured with an outboard PSU. All OEMs for the most part are on equal footing. I will say that server motherboards do have higher specs and better quality (tighter tolerances, longer lasting) than typical motherboards so there's that.

In terms of SGM - Have you heard it? If not, you're commenting with no evidence to substantiate your claim.

My comparison was v a laptop or iMac that has a built in monitor.

The fan in a Mac mini only comes on when the environment is quite warm or the chip is working really hard,, mine doesn't come in normal use.

No I haven't heard the SGM, I am challenging the logic and pricing structure of a PC in a fancy case. How much would it cost to build that? I would say you can build a superb TOTL music server for under 4K. And I don't need or want upsampling or digital filtering either.

Have you tried Room latest version? I tried it v HQPlayer snd preferred Room. The point / design of HQPlayer is upsampling isn't it? I don't need that.

microstrip · Nov 8, 2018

Kal Rubinson said:
That is why I asked you to define what you mean. Servers that can "perform oversampling , filtering or manipulations on the data stream" can also defeat those functions, so their presence is irrelevant. What specific functions do you include under the rubric of server?

I already defined them in my previous posts and we agree on "majors".

Still waiting for your views on sever subjective sound quality ...

microstrip · Nov 8, 2018

asiufy said:
That's not voodoo. It's engineering. Of a different kind, software engineering.

Software engineering to deliver a bit exact audio stream using industry standard channels?

asiufy said:
So many years? It's been what, 10 years? Do you really think CD players progressed this much from 1982-1992?
When CDs came out, that ALSO required audio companies to acquire new skill sets. And it took them a while to learn what was right, and what was less so. Even then, mistakes where made along the way.
As I said, we are only just beginning to understand the effects of software on audio playback. It'll be a while, but it'll be very rewarding.

Yes, they progressed a lot in that period. IMHO it was a real evolution in sound quality.
And again, in terms of engineering, what are the effects of software server in audio playback? Remember we are just addressing servers, not DACs.

asiufy said:
In order to beat the new Transport, with the new ProISL interface, you need an exceptional server, like a Innuos Statement, or the Memory Player. A Mac Mini won't do it.

Interesting. So you assume that , in your experience, the Innuos Statement or the Memory Player can beat the new MSB Transport, with the new ProISL interface?

Koegz · Nov 8, 2018

Hi microstrip wondering you view on AO(audiophile optimizer)? What it truly would bring to the table. I have a silent pc built by “silent PC”. I Installed a Jcat usb femto, linear power supply, Jrivers, dcs Rossini DAC and master clock. Was considering AO but I hear so many different points of view. Not the money but the effort it would take to install. Is it worth it? Thanks

Kal Rubinson · Nov 8, 2018

microstrip said:
I already defined them in my previous posts and we agree on "majors". Still waiting for your views on sever subjective sound quality ...

Actually, you didn't. So let me define it. It is a processing device that:
1. Organizes the contents of a files located on other devices into an organized local library.
2. Provides support (local or remote) for accessing those files and sending them to a DAC.
IMHO, there is no effect on subjective sound quality as long as (a) there are no data conversions, (b) the CPU/RAM is capable of the bandwidth, (c) the output connection is capable of the bandwidth and (d) the server, itself, is sufficiently quiet and isolated (both with regard to audible and electrical noise) from the the connected devices.

microstrip · Nov 8, 2018

Kal Rubinson said:
Actually, you didn't. So let me define it. It is a processing device that:
1. Organizes the contents of a files located on other devices into an organized local library.
2. Provides support (local or remote) for accessing those files and sending them to a DAC.
IMHO, there is no effect on subjective sound quality as long as (a) there are no data conversions, (b) the CPU/RAM is capable of the bandwidth, (c) the output connection is capable of the bandwidth and (d) the server, itself, is sufficiently quiet and isolated (both with regard to audible and electrical noise) from the the connected devices.

Ok, I was not detailing the obvious for the 100th time ...

Anyway it is nice to see you seem to be a server agnostic.

a) , b) c) are trivial, d) IMHO can be easily reached - unless we consider that finding that most servers sound different proves that d) was not achieved.

microstrip · Nov 8, 2018

Koegz said:
Hi microstrip wondering you view on AO(audiophile optimizer)? What it truly would bring to the table. I have a silent pc built by “silent PC”. I Installed a Jcat usb femto, linear power supply, Jrivers, dcs Rossini DAC and master clock. Was considering AO but I hear so many different points of view. Not the money but the effort it would take to install. Is it worth it? Thanks

I have little experience with servers. I use a standard W10 PC with a Jcat network card running Roon. My "optimizations" were limited - isolating the audio network from the internet feed using gigabyte optical fiber and a Netgear router with a linear power supply (nothing fancy, just a DIY LM317 well decoupled regulator). We share the same concern considering software products - to much effort to install just to try. It is why I am interested in learning from others about reliable products with the proper explanations.

Koegz · Nov 8, 2018

AO runs on win 10 and later only. You should check it out. They give clear info on what it does. I am just not as technically informed as you/most here on this site who have experience and/or knowledge that gives them a better informed view point. I have read both sides. Many seem to have some type of agenda. I have NO interest in CD’s. Skipped that entirely. Went from vinyl(60’s-70,s) back to vinyl late 90’s-continuing. Added music server around 2010. On my 3rd. Also 4th dac. dcs Debussy and clock, emm labs dac2x, emm labs DA2 back to dcs a Rossini and master clock. I love vinyl. But I get lazy. I love vinyl physical medium. CD’s just not the same in anyway. Digital no fiscal medium. Opposites truly do attract.
Ok enough with that. Way off topic.
AO, Roon, HQ, linnos, jplay, jrivers, etc do they truly make a sound quality difference. If only organization, I am quite happy with jrivers.
Thanks

microstrip · Nov 8, 2018

Koegz said:
AO runs on win 10 and later only. You should check it out. They give clear info on what it does. I am just not as technically informed as you/most here on this site who have experience and/or knowledge that gives them a better informed view point. I have read both sides. Many seem to have some type of agenda. I have NO interest in CD’s. Skipped that entirely. Went from vinyl(60’s-70,s) back to vinyl late 90’s-continuing. Added music server around 2010. On my 3rd. Also 4th dac. dcs Debussy and clock, emm labs dac2x, emm labs DA2 back to dcs a Rossini and master clock. I love vinyl. But I get lazy. I love vinyl physical medium. CD’s just not the same in anyway. Digital no fiscal medium. Opposites truly do attract.
Ok enough with that. Way off topic.
AO, Roon, HQ, linnos, jplay, jrivers, etc do they truly make a sound quality difference. If only organization, I am quite happy with jrivers.
Thanks

It was very nice to read from you - our laziness pushes us to a common objective.

Although Roon is not a perfect classical music organizer, I am happy with it. As I told before, my dream is a box with two RJ-45 connectors that I would insert between my server and the Vivaldi upsampler to give me a sound quality equal or at less comparable to what I get from the Vivaldi transport.

asiufy · Nov 8, 2018

astrostar59 said:
My comparison was v a laptop or iMac that has a built in monitor.

The fan in a Mac mini only comes on when the environment is quite warm or the chip is working really hard,, mine doesn't come in normal use.

No I haven't heard the SGM, I am challenging the logic and pricing structure of a PC in a fancy case. How much would it cost to build that? I would say you can build a superb TOTL music server for under 4K. And I don't need or want upsampling or digital filtering either.

Have you tried Room latest version? I tried it v HQPlayer snd preferred Room. The point / design of HQPlayer is upsampling isn't it? I don't need that.

You're only challenging it because you haven't heard it. And you can use SGM without HQplayer. Nothing to see here, move along...

asiufy · Nov 8, 2018

microstrip said:
It was very nice to read from you - our laziness pushes us to a common objective. Although Roon is not a perfect classical music organizer, I am happy with it. As I told before, my dream is a box with two RJ-45 connectors that I would insert between my server and the Vivaldi upsampler to give me a sound quality equal or at less comparable to what I get from the Vivaldi transport.

Francisco,

Contact the fine folks at Innuos, who are local to your fabulous country. Ask for a Zenith Statement. It'll do exactly what you want.

thanks,
Alex

asiufy · Nov 8, 2018

microstrip said:
Software engineering to deliver a bit exact audio stream using industry standard channels?

Bit exact doesn't mean timing exact. There's the rub. Otherwise, if delivering "bit exact" was all that mattered to a DAC, there'd be no difference in CD transports as well, because AFAIK, none of them mess up the bits.

Yes, they progressed a lot in that period. IMHO it was a real evolution in sound quality.
And again, in terms of engineering, what are the effects of software server in audio playback? Remember we are just addressing servers, not DACs.

Huge. And that's why I truly think that once further progress is made in software, outside from adapting pre-existing solutions, that's when the true breakthrough in sound quality will happen.

Interesting. So you assume that , in your experience, the Innuos Statement or the Memory Player can beat the new MSB Transport, with the new ProISL interface?

Yep. They did beat the old transport, hands down, very easily. I actually have an MSB Universal Transport (V Plus) for sale, from a client who decided he just didn't need it anymore, once he got the new Renderer.

microstrip · Nov 8, 2018

asiufy said:
Bit exact doesn't mean timing exact. There's the rub. Otherwise, if delivering "bit exact" was all that mattered to a DAC, there'd be no difference in CD transports as well, because AFAIK, none of them mess up the bits.

Huge. And that's why I truly think that once further progress is made in software, outside from adapting pre-existing solutions, that's when the true breakthrough in sound quality will happen.

It seems we agree on the relevance of timing in CD transports - it was studied and people developed excellent systems with transports and DACs - these systems were synchronous. The question is how "software" can predictability control the timing of the bits in the industry standard aynchronous channels for all DACs.

asiufy said:
Yep. They did beat the old transport, hands down, very easily. I actually have an MSB Universal Transport (V Plus) for sale, from a client who decided he just didn't need it anymore, once he got the new Renderer.

I was clearly addressing the current top MSB transport. Did you also try this experiment with it?

BTW, how did you connect the Innuos Statement to the renderer? Does it have two RJ45's to allow simultaneous connection to network and renderer? I could not find any detailed analysis of it - or even a photo of the back. I hope to try it soon, after all it was developed in my country!

asiufy · Nov 8, 2018

Francisco,

That's what a computer does, control timing and CPU allocation among different tasks. The more tasks it has to handle, the less time is left for the tasks relevant to audio playback (which there are many). That's why decreasing the load on the CPU, by disabling irrelevant or superfluous parts of the software/OS makes sense, and generally helps with sound quality, as the CPU will have an easier timing juggling all the myriad tasks, and thus timing will suffer less.
If you have a dedicated operating system, whose sole purpose is to GUARANTEE that the bits will be transferred in real time, with perfect timing, that's the gold mine right there. That's why I said it'd be interesting if a manufacturer decided to explore one of the few true real-time operating systems out there...
I did compare the Renderer to the new MSB transport, at that client's home too. He decided to stick with the Renderer, as the even though performance was similar, it made more sense for him to stick with the Renderer, since he had already invested in a good server. So, his server+Renderer made more sense than the expenditure on a Transport + power supply + new input, etc.
What I can tell you is that, for folks who really don't want to use a server, the MSB transports offer cutting-edge digital performance. And since they are Roon endpoints as well, you can plug them on the network and get a "bonus" Renderer!

sbo6 · Nov 8, 2018

astrostar59 said:
My comparison was v a laptop or iMac that has a built in monitor.

The fan in a Mac mini only comes on when the environment is quite warm or the chip is working really hard,, mine doesn't come in normal use.

No I haven't heard the SGM, I am challenging the logic and pricing structure of a PC in a fancy case. How much would it cost to build that? I would say you can build a superb TOTL music server for under 4K. And I don't need or want upsampling or digital filtering either.

Have you tried Room latest version? I tried it v HQPlayer snd preferred Room. The point / design of HQPlayer is upsampling isn't it? I don't need that.

But, you haven't heard it so you're judging its sound quality based on no data. As for building a DIY server for under $4K, DIYer have been using that argument for years and most fail. I can build a DIY amp, or DAC, or speakers for a fraction of the cost from a Wilson, Pass or TotalDAC, will it be as good? Likely not. Net is - you are greatly underestimating the benefits of design engineering, validation and experience.

Also, I have Roon which has gotten better over the past handful of months but to my ears HQPlayer oversampling or not sounds more realistic. HQplayer is not just about oversampling, it has many filters, dither types, upsampling and PCM <-> DSD conversion. I haven't heard anything better and I've tried many.

microstrip · Nov 8, 2018

asiufy said:
Francisco,

That's what a computer does, control timing and CPU allocation among different tasks. The more tasks it has to handle, the less time is left for the tasks relevant to audio playback (which there are many). That's why decreasing the load on the CPU, by disabling irrelevant or superfluous parts of the software/OS makes sense, and generally helps with sound quality, as the CPU will have an easier timing juggling all the myriad tasks, and thus timing will suffer less.
If you have a dedicated operating system, whose sole purpose is to GUARANTEE that the bits will be transferred in real time, with perfect timing, that's the gold mine right there. That's why I said it'd be interesting if a manufacturer decided to explore one of the few true real-time operating systems out there...
I did compare the Renderer to the new MSB transport, at that client's home too. He decided to stick with the Renderer, as the even though performance was similar, it made more sense for him to stick with the Renderer, since he had already invested in a good server. So, his server+Renderer made more sense than the expenditure on a Transport + power supply + new input, etc.
What I can tell you is that, for folks who really don't want to use a server, the MSB transports offer cutting-edge digital performance. And since they are Roon endpoints as well, you can plug them on the network and get a "bonus" Renderer!

Your argumentation is nice as it can be understood by children - but the main idea "computer easier timing making timing suffer less" is only true if the server is very poorly designed. Real time computing is only needed if the latency is significant, something that does not happen in digital audio. Remember that data is sent in packets and data flow at redbook is very slow. If your explanation was true, then the dual PC approach would be a winner, and a more powerful computer would always sound better.

Kal Rubinson analysis a) , b), c) and d) is spot on. For me the voodoo is in d) . How can we manipulate the timing of the bitstream in the packets to affect subjectively the sound quality in a positive way?

Thanks for your frontality concerning the top MSB transport - it is the first time I read that a server surpasses a dedicated CD transport in redbook format in a top high-end environment.

Kal Rubinson · Nov 8, 2018

microstrip said:
Kal Rubinson analysis a) , b), c) and d) is spot on. For me the voodoo is in d) . How can we manipulate the timing of the bitstream in the packets to affect subjectively the sound quality in a positive way?

(D) is also dependent on the choice of interface is quite relevant.
Also, I am more concerned with an effort to not affect subjectively the sound quality in a negative way.

asiufy · Nov 8, 2018

microstrip said:
BTW, how did you connect the Innuos Statement to the renderer? Does it have two RJ45's to allow simultaneous connection to network and renderer? I could not find any detailed analysis of it - or even a photo of the back. I hope to try it soon, after all it was developed in my country!

Forgot to address this. Most of the Innuos servers have two Ethernet ports. So I have one cable coming from our router into the Innuos, and one (shorter, better) going from the Innuos into the Renderer.

Doing this is noticeably better than not doing it and just running two cables from the router, one to the Innuos and one to the Renderer. With the Statement, even more so.

Here's a photo of the back of one of the older servers:

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