WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

Loheswaran

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Not sure I follow your logic. Many audiophiles are super sensitive . Take the Magico fans. They cheer when their guys from the absolute sound bash every brand as colored and defective , while Magico sounds "real" in these audio journalists' imagination.

Yet when you bring up that the (rejected by the free market and discontinued) Magico q series driven by soulution or consoulation and Berkeley reference dac , "the best dac extant " according to the the absolute sound guys, is so analytical it needs to come with a suicide hotline number so that one doesn't hang himself from the chandelier after 30 seconds of listening, those same folks get upset...



The reality is that the reviewer / magazine marketing machine is very strong, and most of the well-marketed , and thus popular brands are very hard to drive. Wilson , for example , excepting Alexandria, sounds like syrupy crap with most tube amps. And , like Magico , wilson is unlistenable with vast majority of solid state... and guys bought into these popular , well-marketed brands get their feelings hurt when you bring it up ...



The point of this thread is to discuss the interesting topics in hobby, not to have stupid arguments or get guys feelings hurt.

So my suggestion to those who don't accept my premise is to just stay out!!! ... and that also includes the measurement guys also, who think high efficiency gear and set amps is all colored drek, and Magico/ Wilson fans who paid those big bucks are idiot mother fuyers.



And then, of course, many audiophiles just like to argue for the sake of arguing...



Anyways, how are you contributing to the discussion of the topic at hand? If you want to argue, please start your own thread. And please stay out - if you don't have anything constructive to contribute here.
Cheers!


Before getting too wound up, remember:
1. This is a forum - you’ve opened up a discussion so don’t get upset about there being a range of opinions - it is the very nature of a forum - contrary opinions can be challenging - but in the challenge you can learn something. Why have a discussion when you just want a consensus?
2. You are not the forum administrator
3. I am from the smallish amp brigade who loves vinyl - but I accept that it is not the only route to audio nirvana
 
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PeterA

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Not sure I follow your logic. Many audiophiles are super sensitive . Take the Magico fans. They cheer when their guys from the absolute sound bash every brand as colored and defective , while Magico sounds "real" in these audio journalists' imagination.

Yet when you bring up that the (rejected by the free market and discontinued) Magico q series driven by soulution or consoulation and Berkeley reference dac , "the best dac extant " according to the the absolute sound guys, is so analytical it needs to come with a suicide hotline number so that one doesn't hang himself from the chandelier after 30 seconds of listening, those same folks get upset...

The reality is that the reviewer / magazine marketing machine is very strong, and most of the well-marketed , and thus popular brands are very hard to drive. Wilson , for example , excepting Alexandria, sounds like syrupy crap with most tube amps. And , like Magico , wilson is unlistenable with vast majority of solid state... and guys bought into these popular , well-marketed brands get their feelings hurt when you bring it up ...

And then, of course, many audiophiles just like to argue for the sake of arguing...

Caesar, as a fairly long time Magico owner (Mini 2, Q3), I don't know if I am "super sensitive". Nor am I sure that the Q series was rejected by the free market. I just bought the Q3 and have a friend who is looking for a pair to buy. Did the market reject the S series forcing Magico to create the S mk 2 speakers? It seems to me that Magico is well funded, sells a lot of speakers, and is pushing technology. Part of their strategy seems to be constant improvement and new models. Old models become good values on the used market.

I suspect that the Q series is transparent enough to reveal the sonic attributes of the upstream components. If one does not like the Q/Solution or Q/Constallation pairing, perhaps it says something about the electronics. As an owner, I hardly get upset by such descriptions. And my feelings do not get hurt when "you bring it up." People who have heard my Q3/Pass combination have not described it as "analytical, sterile, fatiguing," etc. "Suicide hotline number", that is pretty hilarious.

Yes, some audiophiles start threads on subjects and then make ridiculous claims for the sake of arguing. And some share their actual experience to counter the claims.
 

morricab

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Caesar, as a fairly long time Magico owner (Mini 2, Q3), I don't know if I am "super sensitive". Nor am I sure that the Q series was rejected by the free market. I just bought the Q3 and have a friend who is looking for a pair to buy. Did the market reject the S series forcing Magico to create the S mk 2 speakers? It seems to me that Magico is well funded, sells a lot of speakers, and is pushing technology. Part of their strategy seems to be constant improvement and new models. Old models become good values on the used market.

I suspect that the Q series is transparent enough to reveal the sonic attributes of the upstream components. If one does not like the Q/Solution or Q/Constallation pairing, perhaps it says something about the electronics. As an owner, I hardly get upset by such descriptions. And my feelings do not get hurt when "you bring it up." People who have heard my Q3/Pass combination have not described it as "analytical, sterile, fatiguing," etc. "Suicide hotline number", that is pretty hilarious.

Yes, some audiophiles start threads on subjects and then make ridiculous claims for the sake of arguing. And some share their actual experience to counter the claims.

Luckily when I have heard Magico I have a friend at hand with earplugs in who stops me from pulling the trigger and drags me to safety! LOL...just kidding a bit...

Never heard Magico with Pass...but with other gear it just doesn't light a spark...
 

microstrip

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Al M.

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+2!

The evidence-less bashing of Magico is pretty stunning.

(I have no stake in this game, I don't own a Magico speaker and perhaps never will. I am just interested in something old-fashioned called truth.)
 
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the sound of Tao

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While it can be interesting to dissect something that is fundamentally wholistic and numinous like the causes for emotional connection in listening but in reality there is so much more going on with human perception than the simplistic notion that any one factor such as the sensitivity of a speaker is the one factor that can lead to a perceived outcome.

So while it’s valuable to try and recognise a pattern within the experience the sudden extension that this then in any way precludes any other less efficient speakers from being just as good or even better at a purely subjective matter of making of emotional connections doesn’t hold water.

Abstract notions don’t easily confine themselves to naive limits. Praxis, the great understanding born out of actual experience is a true teacher. It often shows us that our assumptions are not holding in our reality. Anecdotally derived simplistic black and white rules are just waiting to be broken. The truth is forever somewhat beautifully grey thank heavens.
 

the sound of Tao

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+2!

The evidence-less bashing of Magico is pretty stunning.

(I have no stake in this game, I don't own a Magico speaker and perhaps never will. I am just interested in something old-fashioned called truth.)
Would be a better world if we also celebrated other people’s preferences rather than just forever banging on about our own.

I also am guilty of this... err not magico bashing but simply rating my own preferences over others. There are many brands I just don’t get but it is of zero importance to someone else if they are in love with the other. As me dad always be sayin, if you haven’t got something nice to say maybe you don’t have to say anything at all... perhaps he has a point.
 

KeithR

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+2!

The evidence-less bashing of Magico is pretty stunning.

(I have no stake in this game, I don't own a Magico speaker and perhaps never will. I am just interested in something old-fashioned called truth.)

I just think its a polarizing brand, for good or bad. Plenty of people have heard Magico over the past 10 years, so "evidence-less" doesn't make sense to me.

Before Magico, Wilson was routinely disparaged on forums.

Luckily I like neither :0
 
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Al M.

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Folsom

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Are some people feeling like coloration is just a problem if it isn’t too bad, not too colored? As opposed to Magico for those who are not fans?
 
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morricab

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Are some people feeling like coloration is just a problem if it isn’t too bad, not too colored? As opposed to Magici for those who are not fans?

I would say it's one of many trade-offs in speakers. Some people cannot tolerate even a little bit of obvious coloration and others cannot stand if the speaker is very even but lacking dynamic contrast. Of course, these opinions are based not on speakers in isolation as of course we have to feed them with a signal from something and that something can significantly alter the character of the speaker. If the speaker sounds the same regardless of what electronics are behind it then one should steer well clear of that speaker because it is imposing a very strong character on the proceedings.
 

audioquattr

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Yes, some audiophiles start threads on subjects and then make ridiculous claims for the sake of arguing. And some share their actual experience to counter the claims.

+1!
 

Loheswaran

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In attempt to get this back on thread, and not be about MAgicos - love em/ loathe them don't even care most of the time (me) can I make this observation.

I have read various articles and spoke to a friend who has studied audiology. Where we get un-even room response - like most home environments - like a lot of horn speakers - we adjust to it. As such the attempt to have a flat response - all good and well in audio vocabulary terms may well be a tad pointless. To that currently measurements alone do explain our response to certain music systems.

Is it a case with sensitive speakers that they react better to the subtle and minor inflections in music better, and with less effort from the amp?

I heard a talk by Michael Fremer and the guy from HiFi News Ken Kessler and he said that when playing todo drums - you either get the weight or the speed of impact - many systems go to one or the other but never straddle both - that was in 2003 and I did once hear a constellation set up that challenges this, but it was an interesting observation
 

Empirical Audio

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The answer to the OP's question is simple IMO.

With high-efficiency speakers, the amplifier does not need to have such large excursions in power output in order to drive the speakers. The power at high-levels and low levels has different characteristics. If the amp is never asked to deliver high-levels of power, particularly for transients, the distortion created by the output stage is lower. This is what happens using a high-efficiency speaker with a SS muscle amp. I have heard this demonstrated at trade shows.

The biggest problem with SS amps IME is the inability to react to signals uniformly across all power levels. Tubes exhibit less of this problem, but they are relegated to more efficient speakers anyway.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

jkeny

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Yep, a lots of people focus on speakers/room as the main factor determining the sound but in fact it's the electronics that are the most egregious offenders as far as auditory perception is concerned. Why? Because the distortions from electronics are less natural than the distortions from electronics speakers even though, on a pure THD basis, the numbers are far lower for electronics.

The theory for this anomaly is that ground reference which modulates causes all sorts of distortions which currently aren't being shown in measurements.

A ground reference can be modulated by a lot of factors but dynamic current draws on PS is one of the main factors.

High efficiency speaker requires less current drive which helps a lot. Yes some of the magic of tubes is that they are voltage rather than current devices
 
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steve59

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As to the thread title I had some 93.5 eff nearly full range with coax mid tweeter and as colored as they were there was no denying the sheer excitement they would generate when cranked. it's like being assaulted by the music and the thrill of the ride cancels the critic and makes the music take over.
 
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Folsom

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Yep, a lots of people focus on speakers/room as the main factor determining the sound but in fact it's the electronics that are the most egregious offenders as far as auditory perception is concerned. Why? Because the distortions from electronics are less natural than the distortions from electronics even though, on a pure THD basis, the numbers are far lower for electronics.

The theory for this anomaly is that ground reference which modulates causes all sorts of distortions which currently aren't being shown in measurements.

A ground reference can be modulated by a lot of factors but dynamic current draws on PS is one of the main factors.

High efficiency speaker requires less current drive which helps a lot. Yes some of the magic of tubes is that they are voltage rather than current devices

I think this may be your worst post ever. There is nothing useful in it. Distortions that can’t be measured, but exhibit huge swings in ground reference? No. That doesn’t makese sense. Also it isn’t completely clear what you mean. There are problems with electronics, but it isn’t that simple, nor necessarily the electronics fault.

High efficiency speakers actually use less voltage relative to wattage required. They are the opposite of what you are saying, even though they use less current. They are using less because the voltage is lower. But why it isn’t respective to current is because the resistance is either more or the same for high efficiency speakers, so they draw the same amount per volt. At impedance peaks maybe they are different, depends on driver and how much of one a peak it has. The formula for current (I) is I = V/R . If the driver is more sensitive it is louder at 1V. The voltage is the limit of usable watts, at least in a pure volume sense (higher watts, but not higher volume can come from higher current use, because W=V*I and voltage is capped by power supply of amp).

I believe you could elaborate and tell us something, not seen in that post.
 

jkeny

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Yes, they distort when cranked
I think this may be your worst post ever. There is nothing useful in it. Distortions that can’t be measured, but exhibit huge swings in ground reference? No. That doesn’t makese sense. Also it isn’t completely clear what you mean. There are problems with electronics, but it isn’t that simple, nor necessarily the electronics fault.
Well, what's underpinning all I said is some understanding of how auditory perception works & how THD & various stock measurements used in audio are not in any way correlating to what we perceive in the sound. I'm sure you are aware that THD bears little significance to how something sounds?

Edit: I see the problem is the wording of my post & have corrected it - second "electronics" should read "speakers"

I could go on a bit (but I don't have the time) about my pet theory at the moment of noise floor modulation being one very strong candidate for a category of distortions in active electronic devices which is audible but currently a measurement has not been devices to reveal it

High efficiency speakers actually use less voltage relative to wattage required. They are the opposite of what you are saying, even though they use less current. They are using less because the voltage is lower. But why it isn’t respective to current is because the resistance is either more or the same for high efficiency speakers, so they draw the same amount per volt. At impedance peaks maybe they are different, depends on driver and how much of one a peak it has. The formula for current (I) is I = V/R . If the driver is more sensitive it is louder at 1V. The voltage is the limit of usable watts, at least in a pure volume sense (higher watts, but not higher volume can come from higher current use, because W=V*I and voltage is capped by power supply of amp).

I believe you could elaborate and tell us something, not seen in that post.
Again, I don't have time to elaborate (3am here) but I just wanted to make the basic point that when active device are operating at a small percentage of their full capability, there tends to be a magic to the sound - I have my ideas of why, you may disagree with my ideas but I'm going to sleep now & will dream sweetly, I hope
 
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